Light attack aircraft for counter-insurgency mission

[Supernova-III]

Let's consider some light attack aircraft and see how they fit light attack aircraft role, say, counter-insurgency mission. I want to understand, in which scenario which aircraft can be used in DCS.

1. MB-339
   • Pros
     • Wide nomenclature of air-to-surface armament
     • Rich nav equipment
   • Cons
     • No radar altimeter, which is bad for low level mission
     • No air-to-air rockets, but who needs it anyway in counter-insurgency scenario? But who knows...
     • No flares
     • Bad support in DCS, almost six month now without updates
2. C-101
   • Pros
     • Excellent nav equipment
     • Has radar altimeter, which is helpful in low-level missions
     • Good air-to-surface nomenclature, MB-339 is better though (?)
     • Has aim-9 for self-defense, but who needs it in counter-insurgency scenarios? Well...
     • Good support in DCS, regular updates
   • Cons
     • Not so high in G, but not critical, as it's slower
     • No flares
3. L-39ZA
   • Pros (help me here)
     • @MiG21bisFishbedL input
       • Carries R-60 and R-13 air-to-air missiles
       • PK-3 gunpods
       • GSh-23L
   • Cons
     • Worse nav
     • No countermeasures
   • But
     • L-39 has known real combat employment in multiple conflicts
4. OV-10 Bronco
   • Pros
     • COIN-native machine 
     • Carries wide variety of weapons, both a2g and a2a
   • Cons
     • ?
5. A-4 Skyhawk
   • Pros
     • Rich operational history in role of light attack aircraft
     • Carrier-capable
     • Radar
     • Countermeasures
     • Wide variety of a2g and a2a weapons
   • Cons
     • ?

Edited 7 hours ago by Supernova-III

[Silver_Dragon]

The problem about the C-101, was the CASA never planned them as a COIN aircraft. The C-101BB was a export trainer, the C-101CC was only a light attack version, but missing many advance funtionality. A more advanced version (C-101DD) with Radar, Chaff and flares, advanced HUD, balistic computer, RWR, HOTAS, AGM-65 Maverick compatibility and other improvements, never enter on production but was only centred on the USA market, no as a aircraft to the EDA (Spanish Air Force) never was Light Attack versions, only EB trainers.

Remember the C-101 (and other aircrafts) missing incendiary and other weapons, no developed by ED on the core.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

7 hours ago, Supernova-III said:

Let's consider some light attack aircraft and see how they fit light attack aircraft role, say, counter-insurgency mission. I want to understand, in which scenario which aircraft can be used in DCS.

1. MB-339
   • Pros
     • Fast
     • Can do high G
     • Wide nomenclature of air-to-surface armament
     • Rich nav equipment
   • Cons
     • No radar altimeter, which is bad for low level mission
     • No air-to-air rockets, but who needs it anyway in counter-insurgency scenario? But who knows...
     • No flares
     • Bad support in DCS, almost six month now without updates
2. C-101
   • Pros
     • Excellent nav equipment
     • Has radar altimeter, which is helpful in low-level missions
     • Good air-to-surface nomenclature, MB-339 is better though (?)
     • Has aim-9 for self-defense, but who needs it in counter-insurgency scenarios? Well...
     • Good support in DCS, regular updates
   • Cons
     • Not so fast comparing to mb-339
     • Not so high in G, but not critical, as it's slower
     • No flares
3. L-39ZA
   • Pros? Help me here
   • Cons
     • Not really fast
     • Worse nav
     • No countermeasures
   • But
     • L-39 has known real combat employment in multiple conflicts

L-39ZA can carry R-60s and R-13s, the PK-3 gunpods (which are absolutely fantastic for soft target work), and it comes with a bruiser of a gun in the Gsh-23L in its underslung pod. 

Edited 20 hours ago by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Supernova-III]

10 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

L-39ZA can carry R-60s and R-13s, the PK-3 gunpods (which are absolutely fantastic for soft target work), and it comes with a bruiser of a gun in the Gsh-23L in its underslung pod. 

Thank you! Added your input to the post

[Supernova-III]

16 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

the C-101CC was only a light attack version

probably I misunderstand, what light attack version is supposed to do. Is it just for training or real combat employment possible.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

probably I misunderstand, what light attack version is supposed to do. Is it just for training or real combat employment possible.

This is just episode 1 in a long series. I’d recommend you watch them all:

 

 

 

[Supernova-III]

1 minute ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

This is just episode 1 in a long series. I’d recommend you watch them all:

 

 

 

sure, but shorter answer would be appreciate as well 

[MAXsenna]

sure, but shorter answer would be appreciate as well 

Anything light enough to be able take off with a weapon strapped on.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

8 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

sure, but shorter answer would be appreciate as well 

Just think a second on why the US went with a glorified crop duster for their new platform:

It's light, can takeoff and land pretty much anywhere, can loiter for ages, has 3-4 different sensors on it, APKWS and LGBs, …

Light attack is basically an armed ISR platform for low-intensity combat.

[Supernova-III]

1 minute ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Just think a second on why the US went with a glorified crop duster for their new platform:

It's light, can takeoff and land pretty much anywhere, can loiter for ages, has 3-4 different sensors on it, APKWS and LGBs, …

Light attack is basically an armed ISR platform for low-intensity combat.

well, I am focused on those 3 I mentioned in the post. We don't have anything else in DCS that can be considered a light aircraft. I would really love to see A-29 some day, but you know... 

[Kang]

The C-101CC certainly is a light attack aircraft and if I'm not mistaken it has been used in that role sporadically. What I think Silver_Dragon wanted to point out was, that the C-101 per se was never really meant to be such, why it it can feel a little lackluster in its performance.

[Supernova-III]

16 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

C-101 (and other aircrafts) missing incendiary

it actually has one:

 

 

11 minutes ago, Kang said:

why it it can feel a little lackluster in its performance.

if you mean its flying characteristics, it's more performant than A-29

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I really need to play with the C-101CC more in CAS/COIN operations. 

The 339's performance is upfront and pretty stellar in that kind of mission and I've spent enough time with the L-39 to come to grips with its requirements, too.

@Supernova-III Will you include the A-7 Corsair when that drops? That was, at least according to the US Navy, a 'light attack' platform. 

[Stratos]

One of the best COIN aircraft for DCS If not the best is the FREE mod of the Ov-10 Bronco, is slow yes but can carry lot of stuff, both A-G and some Winders, can loiter for a lot of time, easy and fun to fly, and you can land anywhere, like in dirt paths. Give it a go, seriously.

DCS could be a great platform for COIN, but they really need to improve this three things, in order of importance.

- Infantry behavior, including suppression and cover taking. Also new models and weapons are really needed, like soviet infantry machine gunner!!

- More COIN useful enemy weapons, including the very common Sa-7 MANPAD and light caliber MG's like the ZPU or the DShK (not the one we have on  pick up trucks). I use the low digit SAM mod for the Sa7 and have a ZPU-2 almost ready to release.

- Fire bombs man! After all this years we don't have them, and there are lots of fire bombs we can use in COIN scenarios.

 

[Supernova-III]

2 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Will you include the A-7 Corsair when that drops?

let's try 

[Silver_Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

it actually has one:

 

 

if you mean its flying characteristics, it's more performant than A-29

Only has a HE effect, ED never has implemented incendiary effects on DCS World.

[Supernova-III]

3 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Ov-10 Bronco

Hm, I probably should include this one. What about its flight model?

3 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Fire bombs man!

You mean incendiary bombs? As I mentioned earlier, C-101 has one type of such kind of bombs. UPD: not really valid, probably

Just now, Silver_Dragon said:

Only has a HE effect, ED never has implemented incendiary effects on DCS World.

didn't know that, thank you. Is this because this is prohibited weapon or something like this?

Edited 9 hours ago by Supernova-III

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

6 minutes ago, Stratos said:

One of the best COIN aircraft for DCS If not the best is the FREE mod of the Ov-10 Bronco, is slow yes but can carry lot of stuff, both A-G and some Winders, can loiter for a lot of time, easy and fun to fly, and you can land anywhere, like in dirt paths. Give it a go, seriously.

DCS could be a great platform for COIN, but they really need to improve this three things, in order of importance.

- Infantry behavior, including suppression and cover taking. Also new models and weapons are really needed, like soviet infantry machine gunner!!

- More COIN useful enemy weapons, including the very common Sa-7 MANPAD and light caliber MG's like the ZPU or the DShK (not the one we have on  pick up trucks). I use the low digit SAM mod for the Sa7 and have a ZPU-2 almost ready to release.

- Fire bombs man! After all this years we don't have them, and there are lots of fire bombs we can use in COIN scenarios.

 

Honestly? If you want an actual huge improvement to the DCS COIN experience? 

The Dynamic Campaign Generator. Counter-insurgencies are very much a unification of military and political elements. They need function in conjunction with one another to prove successful. They must not just defeat insurgents, but also demonstrate to a population that the insurgents do not have their best interests at heart and are rogue elements while also assuring this population that the current government is a much better option and deserves their support. That way, a mission would emphasize a need for restraint, a need for accuracy, and decision making on the fly.

Is that convoy of 3 trucks supposed to be there? They have white covers, could they be a bunch of aid workers from the UN, an NGO, or even just locals? Or is this something else?

Basically, the A-10C II and the OH-58D would be absolutely come into their own. 

Edited 9 hours ago by MiG21bisFishbedL

[MAXsenna]

8 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

I really need to play with the C-101CC more in CAS/COIN operations. 

Just try the included campaign.

[Silver_Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

didn't know that, thank you. Is this because this is prohibited weapon or something like this?

No prohibited, on fact Ed has claim a real incendiary/fire effect will coming with the Mk-77 F/A-18C aircraft and all other incendiary bombs on DCS World. On fact, has some incendiary bomb no released as a Soviet/WW2 bombs.

• Mk-77 firebomb (visual effect first required).

The "only" prohibited weapon actualy on DCS W was the Nuclear effect on the Mig-21bis Nuclear Bombs (has only HE very big effets). ED has banned al NBQ effects on the game.

Edited 9 hours ago by Silver_Dragon

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 minute ago, MAXsenna said:

Just try the included campaign.

I really should, I just put it off. I even like COIN fliers.

[Stratos]

4 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Honestly? If you want an actual huge improvement to the DCS COIN experience? 

The Dynamic Campaign Generator. Counter-insurgencies are very much a unification of military and political elements. They need function in conjunction with one another to prove successful. They must not just defeat insurgents, but also demonstrate to a population that the insurgents do not have their best interests at heart and are rogue elements while also assuring this population that the current government is a much better option and deserves their support. That way, a mission would emphasize a need for restraint, a need for accuracy, and decision making on the fly.

Is that convoy of 3 trucks supposed to be there? They have white covers, could they be a bunch of aid workers from the UN, an NGO, or even just locals? Or is this something else?

Basically, the A-10C II and the OH-58D would be absolutely come into their own. 

Haha, that would be great, but we don't have that dynamic campaign yet, so I wanted to stick to easy additions.

[Supernova-III]

 

15 minutes ago, Stratos said:

One of the best COIN aircraft for DCS If not the best is the FREE mod of the Ov-10 Bronco

added to the post.

 

Actually, should "slow" be considered as a weakness in light attack/cas/coin scenario? It seems rather the opposite. The ability to fly slow is rather a feature.

[Stratos]

8 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

 

added to the post.

 

Actually, should "slow" be considered as a weakness in light attack/cas/coin scenario? It seems rather the opposite. The ability to fly slow is rather a feature.

You seem to favor the fastest planes...

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

4 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

 

added to the post.

 

Actually, should "slow" be considered as a weakness in light attack/cas/coin scenario? It seems rather the opposite. The ability to fly slow is rather a feature.

It's a double-edged sword.

Being slow means you don't get on station as fast and you can't reposition as quickly nor can you effectively evade an IR SAM, but it also means you can launch from further out with more confidence and stay out of the reach of ground fire better. And, landing on unprepared strips is done with more confidence.

I've done quite a bit light attack stuff in the 39ZA and I've been able to pretty consistently dodge Iglas and Strelas with it, not even needing flares. Having even a little speed you can get from a split-S is pretty nice to have. Having that and also knowing how to terrain-mask can make the lack of countermeasures seem less acute. I'd still take them if I could, of course.

This is where something like the OH-58D really comes into its own; using its MMS, it can observe and track a target before using a guided rocket or missile to slap any threats without them ever knowing you were there.

So, being slow can be a con in places, but you can definitely offset it with other aspects.