Figuring out Trimmer

[btaft]

I know this has been beat to death, but I just want to make sure I understand exactly how this trimmer works.

 

Irregardless of which trimmer setting method you use is it accurate to say that:

 

1) When you set the trimmer while traveling relatively straight and level that the trimmer will attempt to maintain the heading where it was activated....sort of like a heading autopilot. In this regards the flight control computer will actually change roll and anti-torque pedal input to make this happen (within its 20% authority)

 

2) The above is only true when FD mode is disabled

 

 

Is this the case for the real BS, if so isn't this more of a course autopilot. I had always thought a trim function merely resets the neutral point for the control regardless of what it is.

 

I feel I understand this but want to make sure.

 

Thanks

 

BT

[andyfoot]

You need to watch the Trim video (Producers note 10) http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/index.php?end_pos=133&scr=products&lang=en

This gives a better understanding of how it works, it is a lot more complicated than your summary above, and if you don't understand it well you will fight the Autopilot more than you fight the enemy. It is time well spent getting to fully understand the different functions and modes. You have to understand how it interfaces with other systems like Route Mode, Auto Turn to Target Mode, Flight Director mode, whether you have selected Direct Heading or Desired Track or the mid postion. Also the Collective Brake, how that affects your trim settings. Experimenting with it is the best way to get to know it, mastering it is very rewarding when you are taking out targets with rockets and guns.

[btaft]

Andy,

 

I had looked at that video a while back and just looked at it again and it doesn not delve into how the trimmer interacts with the autopilot from what I could see (unless they re-did the video with latest patch).

 

One thing I did notice about the video is that it does not reset the heading carret each time the trimmer is pressed. Where as that does happen in my configuration (at least since the patch and I can't remember before that).

 

Let me explain what I have been doing....

 

I have been practicing on the courrier mission and have been allowing the computer to execute the start-up sequence. What this gives me is the following:

 

-Route mode is off

-The Pitch, Roll and heading indicators are lit up

 

I am not using route mode on any of this flight

 

I take off and head towards the car over the mountains to get the documents and I set the trimmer once I am heading in the general direction and appear to be in straight and level flight

 

I then release the controls. When I look at the hud the PVI (assumption) has placed a carret at the heading at which I pressed the trimmer and the heli attempts to maintain that heading

 

If I try to make a minor correction in heading by deflecting the stick or rudder and release the heli returns to it the heading set by the carret (this is with no waypoints and the route mode is off)

 

The only way to set a new heading is to either hold the controls there or to press the trimmer again.

 

I noticed in the training video that the carret was not placed again each time the trimmer was set (of course I couldn't see what AP channels were lit up and if this had an effect).

 

I believe this is new to the most recent patch. In this regards it seems like the trimmer is acting like a course AP instead of just a means in which to reset the center point for the controls.

[andyfoot]

btaft,

 

I just looked this up in the manual, and just watched the trim video again. Notice he has Waypoint 1 selected on the PVI panel, which is why his caret didn't change.

 

Route without Task

If a navigation task is not selected, meaning that no waypoint, target, or airfield is selected from the Navigation panel, it is possible to engage Route mode to maintain your current flight path. Thus, current flight path parameters like pitch, roll, yaw, and altitude are saved in the navigation system. To engage Route mode without a task, switch off all task buttons on the Navigation panel: Waypoints, Targets, and Airfields. The position of the Desired Heading – Desired Track Angle switch does not influence navigation.

 Stabilize the helicopter in level flight with the desired speed.

 Engage ROUTE mode by setting the "МАРШРУТ-СНИЖЕНИЕ" (ROUTE – DESCENT) switch on the collective to the ROUTE position and the helicopter will hold current flight parameters and bearing.

For changing flight parameters it is necessary to:

1. Press and hold the Trimmer on the cyclic stick.

2. Set new flight input (bearing, pitch and speed).

3. Release the Trimmer button.

During such flight, monitor the aircraft‟ position on the ABRIS map and compare the heading information of the HSI and the magnetic compass. According to the flight plan, you may need to switch ADF channels and use the NDB bearing indication.

[nemises]

I know this has been beat to death, but I just want to make sure I understand exactly how this trimmer works.

 

Irregardless of which trimmer setting method you use is it accurate to say that:

 

1) When you set the trimmer while traveling relatively straight and level that the trimmer will attempt to maintain the heading where it was activated....sort of like a heading autopilot. In this regards the flight control computer will actually change roll and anti-torque pedal input to make this happen (within its 20% authority)

 

2) The above is only true when FD mode is disabled

 

 

Is this the case for the real BS, if so isn't this more of a course autopilot. I had always thought a trim function merely resets the neutral point for the control regardless of what it is.

 

I feel I understand this but want to make sure.

 

Thanks

 

BT

 

Hi Mate,

That is an accurate appraisel of how it works.

 

The trimmer button doubles as a "new heading" Input button , when released, for the Heading hold AP channel and also sets the goal pitch/speed when in route mode.

 

While the button is pressed, all input from AP is disabled.

 

The Collective brake has a similar function inputting goal altitude for the Altitude hold channel.

[btaft]

Thanks Andy and Nemisis,

 

It looks like I might need to get int he habit of holding down the trimmer button when I am looking to change heading.

 

I had been doing a series of chnages until it was where I wanted it.

[nemises]

yeah, dunno , I definately find the press-and-hold much easier, though I believe the "fight AP and then trim" method is he technically correct way ?

[AlphaOneSix]

yeah, dunno , I definately find the press-and-hold much easier, though I believe the "fight AP and then trim" method is he technically correct way ?

 

"Eastern" instruction, in my experience, is to perform several "tap and release" on the trimmer button. The volume of taps and releases seems to vary wildly depending on who you encounter. Proper Russian technique seems to be to move the controls to where you want them, and tap and release once to set the new trim position. I've flown with Iraqi pilots who tap and release like they are playing XBox and their lives depend on how fast they can mash that trimmer button.

 

"Western" instruction is to hold the trimer button down, move the controls and stabilize at your new attitude, then release, what I'd call "press and hold". Since I'm used to this method, it's what I use and I've found the trimmer system to be very friendly for me.

[159th_Viper]

yeah, dunno , I definately find the press-and-hold much easier, though I believe the "fight AP and then trim" method is he technically correct way ?

 

I started with 'Tap and Release' and then ventured onto 'Press and Hold'. Found that with 'Press and Hold' my Higher-Level Hand Motor Functionwent completely Haywire when confronted by that first 'SAM Launch WTF Now' moments so often encountered.

 

Needless to say reverted back to 'Tap and Release'. Vastly more intuitive and natural for me.

[nemises]

yeah, I need to move my trim button, as its currently on a thumb button (x52 button A) ... this is fine for normal flight ops, but kinda sucks when I need to launch a Missle/rocket with the same thumb (thumb fire button) .... pinkie switch would be ideal, but I've allready brain-trained so many useful functions using it as a shift button.. :(:(

[btaft]

Yeah,

 

I just played around with the hold and release and started to warm up to it a little bit but then quickly changed my mind. I have a button programed for FD, so if I want the AP to stay out of the way for a while I think I will just use that. The tap and release seems to work pretty good in quick adjustments.

 

I have never flown a helicopter before, but does a typical helicopter's (if there is one) trimmer try to maintain the heading like the BS or does it merely hlod the cyclic position. Along these lines does a typical trimmer engage the rudder pedals as well?

 

Not looking to be critical, merely feeding a curiousity

[AlphaOneSix]

I have never flown a helicopter before, but does a typical helicopter's (if there is one) trimmer try to maintain the heading like the BS or does it merely hlod the cyclic position. Along these lines does a typical trimmer engage the rudder pedals as well?

 

In general, helicopter with trim feel systems have spring in both the cyclic and the pedals to provide feedback and to hold the cyclic and pedals in place (but it's still just the one button to release the springs on both cyclic and pedals, there isn't a separate trim button for the pedals). Also, aircraft that have SAS/SCAS (stability augmentation system/stability control augmentation system) do typically try to hold your last trimmed attitude when the controls are not moving.

[Sarge55]

yeah, I need to move my trim button, as its currently on a thumb button (x52 button A) ... this is fine for normal flight ops, but kinda sucks when I need to launch a Missle/rocket with the same thumb (thumb fire button) .... pinkie switch would be ideal, but I've allready brain-trained so many useful functions using it as a shift button.. :(:(

I came to the same conclusion as well and just trimmed (pun intended) my buttons down to just the most functional setup until I could assign the pinky switch for trim. It works great, much easier. :thumbup:

[Petko]

I had a hard lesson figuring trim myself out.

The thing is, that if someone has a force feedback joystick, its working different than with normal joysticks, where you use the "trim and center" method.

I didnt know this at first, and I always wanted to center the stick but it just made abrupt movements.

Finally i found out that with force feedback joysticks the developers intented to make trim much more realistic and if you trim you SHOULDNT NEED to move the joystick to the center, but the forces will reset and SHOULD hold the joytick in the position where you clicked trim. This thing WOULD have been great but actually there is some stupid bug with the force feedback interface of the game, and the trim forces on the axis are too weak to hold the stick there. So it kicks back and makes trim with force feedback useless.

 

And thanks to this bug, i cant use my force feedback function of my Saitek Cyborg EVO Force, because trimming is impossible. So i just disabled FF from the config and use it as a regular joystick.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Petko
fixing spelling

[DocNobby]

It's not a software bug, it's a harware bug. :joystick:

The EVO Force is just to weak to hold the stick were it should be when trimmed. And the centering spring always tries to center the stick so it's working against the FF motors too.

 

The MS Sidewinder FF seems to be the only FF-Stick srong enough to hold the stick in position, when it's trimmed off center.

 

I courious to see how the new FF HOTAS from Saitek and Logitech will handle this situation.

If Saitel sticks with the physical centering spring, I see no joy... :pilotfly:

[Petko]

It's not a software bug, it's a harware bug. :joystick:

The EVO Force is just to weak to hold the stick were it should be when trimmed. And the centering spring always tries to center the stick so it's working against the FF motors too.

 

The MS Sidewinder FF seems to be the only FF-Stick srong enough to hold the stick in position, when it's trimmed off center.

 

I courious to see how the new FF HOTAS from Saitek and Logitech will handle this situation.

If Saitel sticks with the physical centering spring, I see no joy... :pilotfly:

 

I was searching on this forum, and there were some threads about this problem. A guy posted a video on youtube with a test software, which was able to diagnose FF joysticks by enabling different force settings on them. I also tried this software, and infact the evo force servo is extremly strong and it can hold the stick in an extreme position even with the spring, that i was barely able to recenter it with my hands.

 

Oh yea, and here is the video:

 

Edited September 7, 2009 by Petko

[connos]

I tried that software with EVO Force 2 and it works as it should.

[Triggerhappy69]

According to FS Force:

" using DirectX, you can vary the strength of the centering force, as well as adjust the "center position" of the centering force (the place where the joystick wants to come to rest). The center of the centering force (the place of no resistance) can be programmatically positioned anywhere along the 2 axis of the joystick. That means you can experience the feeling of being in trim (no resistance) with the joystick pushed forward (for instance, at high speeds), or with it pulled back into your lap (at slow speeds), exactly like you would in a real plane. But sadly Microsoft never bothered to modified the simulator to take advantage of this. That is why FS Force intercepts your trim commands and prevents them from reaching FSX. When you make trim changes, FS Force slowly moves the center position of the centering force until it coincides with the current physical position of the joystick. The "sweet spot" comes to you, rather than you having to go find it. "

 

Is this the same as saying that someone, who know how to make an add-on program and tweak the DirectX values that DCS/BS is recieving, could solve the whole "flat curve & no deadzone" problem for us FFB users? Just by altering the DirectX inputs before they are read by DCS?

[DocNobby]

Wow, very intresting.

Thanks for the video!

 

Well, a third pary solution would be intresting, but I think that's a job for ED. Maby in the next patch? :D

They have the code, so it would be best if the problem is solved directly by ED.

[Petko]

after almost a year, i checked out this issue with 1.0.2 version of the game with the saitek joytick and it still doesnt work :(

 

im really disappinted that this wasnt fixed.. i bought an expensive hardware back then, and i cant use it and nobody takes care on the developers side

[Frederf]

If it were me designing a FF stick there would either be no spring at all or the spring would be toggled on or off based on whether you were using a FF software or not (in fact, the engineering of it would be very close to how the Ka-50's actual stick works.)

 

What you've bought is simply not a force feedback stick but a "rumble" stick. The fault really isn't with the design but with marketing using terms as if they were interchangeable.

[Petko]

Any update on this bug for Black Shark 2? I wont pay for this patch, if it still does not fix it.

[159th_Viper]

Any update on this bug for Black Shark 2? I wont pay for this patch, if it still does not fix it.

 

Trim is fine - no bug.

[PeterP]

Trim/hold position is for the MS-FFB2 fine without adjustment of the axis.

On the EVO there is a asynchrony in the in reported X/Y axis position and the FFB motors.

Try to modify the saturation on the X/Y for your EVO to bring the potentiometers with the motors in sync.