Military.com video: 5 Armed Insurgents Meet 3 Hellfire Missiles

[EinsteinEP]

http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=200139&ESRC=navy.nl

[159th_Viper]

Hellishly Expensive Target Prosecution!

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Highly expansive delivery systems plus Hellfire missile, average cost ~30 000 USD against Kalashnikov armed untrained solders (low cost) on foot. Hellfire shooting a hut made of mud bricks. So this video showed us how to spend 100 000 US dollars ... for what reason?

 

If the purpose was to show our model of fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq, then it is rather obvious who is loosing this war strategically.

 

If the purpose of this video is entertainment, then the video is not cool. Killing is not cool, even during the war.

 

And I'll repeat, the hellfire is not designed to shoot at individual (or few) soldiers on foot, armed with 10 years old AK-47.

[Boberro]

What distance was to targets?

 

Hellfire or guns anyway important these talibs won't hurt anyone anymore.

[192nd_Erdem]

I don't think a video of people getting blown to pieces suits the "DCS General Discussion" forums, let alone ED Forums at all.

[muamshai]

Not a cool video. Doesn't belong to ED forum..

[Cionara]

As long as they don't fire a 800.000 € Storm-Shadow cruise missile on 'em....

 

But im alyways fascinated that you can just get blown up out of nothing from something far away one can't see.

AC-130 is one of the meanest. I hope I will never have to meet such a beast.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Cionara

[vortex360]

Not a cool video. Doesn't belong to ED forum..

 

Yet you find it cool to simulate this very same action via the game. If they didn't want to get aced all they had to do was not live by the sword. They were armed, they're gone and they ain't coming back.

[RedTiger]

Highly expansive delivery systems plus Hellfire missile, average cost ~30 000 USD against Kalashnikov armed untrained solders (low cost) on foot. Hellfire shooting a hut made of mud bricks. So this video showed us how to spend 100 000 US dollars ... for what reason?

 

If the purpose was to show our model of fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq, then it is rather obvious who is loosing this war strategically.

 

If the purpose of this video is entertainment, then the video is not cool. Killing is not cool, even during the war.

 

And I'll repeat, the hellfire is not designed to shoot at individual (or few) soldiers on foot, armed with 10 years old AK-47.

 

How about we put you in an attack helicopter and give you the choice of using a stand-off weapon and remaining alive vs. going in up close and personal with a different weapon and greatly increasing your chances of being shot down and tortured to death? Kalashnikovs? Try RPGs, Dshks, possibly worse. Untrained soldiers? Its the will to fight that makes you dangerous, not the ability. For being so ineffective, they are causing everyone a lot of trouble. You're somehow making the assumption that killing those guys was primarily to defend themsevles when it is much more likely to support groud troops. You may not be afraid of rifle bullets, but Private Ryan sure as hell is. Not to mention mortors and just about every other nasty weapon meant to KILL people, which is not "cool", right?

 

*IF* you survive, we'll see how quick you are to quote the costs of a missile. What's worth more to you, your life, the life of the ground troops you support or several thousand dollars? Speaking as a US tax payer -- they can by all means fire as many as they need to get the job done. If you want to argue about the cost of an entire military operation and its validity, that's one thing. Counting the beans once the shooting starts? Only if you're willing to be the one getting shot at, IMO. ;)

 

BTW, someone needs to read Ed Macy's book. IIRC, if they didn't use the missiles it eventually cost time and money anyway to ship them back after so many captive carries. Its the same with any missile. If you have them, use them!

Edited September 24, 2009 by RedTiger

[Groove]

The hellfire missile was recently updated to meet new requirements on the battlefield, and thats fighting groups of insurgents.

 

Im watching this thread closely so better keep it on topic!

[nscode]

Yes, it might actually be cheaper, I was thinkig the same thing (defenitly cheaper than sending people in). It's also a war crime.

[joey45]

Whats more accute..

 

the gun... HEDP of 30mm a small radious of blast

 

Rockets - the US Hydra isn't that accute and not very good in built up areas [unless you want to level the biuldings around them]

 

Hellfire - VERY accute and less damage to the surrounding target.

 

What would be your weapon of choice with minimal loss of civvies.

[topol-m]

I don`t think the the danger of being shot was the reason to use hellfire missiles in this case. There were several constantly monitored hostiles and i don`t think anyone of them was armed with RPG or Igla. The use of hellfires might be justified though because the conditions in the given case make it more effective - at night it`s more quiet and the helicopter can be heard if closing in for gun range, the hostiles are in an area with a lot options for cover (meaning fast and accurate attack is needed for taking all of them out), the area is populated and again requires fast and accurate attack not giving the hostiles the opportunity of taking cover in some of the houses and thus limiting collateral damage.

[nscode]

Yeah.. and never mind blowing up some of those houses.

[topol-m]

^^^ They should`t blow up any house unless it`s full of hostiles ;) None of the missiles fired in this video blew up a house. Surely the adjacent buildings took some damage but not significant.

[CE_Mikemonster]

I think it was 2x hellfires and 1x LGB (but I didn't have sound). The last explosion seemed huge in comparison, and also seemed to be more of a 'just to make sure' strike.

 

As to posting this sort of thing on ED forums, death is serious, and unless you have a proffessional interest in war (i.e. rather than entertainment) then you shouldn't post war-porn.

The title of this thread is a bit cocky and colloquial, and respect should be shown. Possibly more to keep us humanised than to honour the dead.

 

That said though, I watched it (it's late here and I was bored) so yup i'm a hypocrite! Imagine though if everyone posted such links.. Chechen, Russian, Pakistani, Israeli, Iranian.. there would be a lot of friction.

 

PS: such buzzwords as 'collateral damage' are just that, buzzwords. Slang like that isn't there by accident, even if it is popularly used as the 'norm'. Civilian deaths are deaths, not 'collateral'. But then, I am no advertiser!

[AlphaOneSix]

A video does not provide much context, so we have no clue what circumstances surround this engagement. Of course speculation is the fun part, right? So this is an entertaining discussion considering none of us have a clue about what happened besides the fact that some people were killed by some missiles.

 

Killing armed insurgents with missiles is not a war crime (unless the "war crime" comment was referring to something else).

 

The Hellfire missile on the Apache is referred to as the Point Target Weapon System for good reason, it's used to engage point targets with a high degree of accuracy. Targets are don't have to be vehicles or buildings to be considered "point targets".

 

The gun is called the Area Weapon System. The name alone should indicate why it is not the weapon of choice for engagements in built-up areas.

[morsmortis]

It would be a lot cheaper to just fly in a CAS aircraft with fuel airbombs and kill everyone in the whole compound right? If the US doesn't get criticized for killing civilians, it gets critcism for using expensive weapons trying to protect them.

 

These pilots are not stupid. They know how much a hellfire costs, and I'm pretty sure they are trained on ROE and cost of letting even one insurgent escape and the potential for him killing a coalition soldier, which would highly outwiegh the cost of a single hellfire missile by at least 20 times.

 

NATO pilots who provide CAS probably have one of the hardest jobs in the world, especially helo ones. Not only do they have to deal with flying their aircraft, they have to make split-second decisions which could affect world opinions and their career. Other nations who have conducted combat ops in past few years have shown little or no regard for civilian casualties, while NATO pilots have to fly with the mindset of a lawyer and a combat pilot. I can almost guanrantee you that the pilots who killed those civilians near the trucks are probably FAC's or running a simulator for student pilots when in other countries they would be awarded medals.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

We indeed don't know the details about this engagement, however, that is yet another reason not to post this kind of videos on this forum.

 

I am sure the pilots are highly skilled and trained and well aware about the ROE. But I also know that we just can not afford to waste money, period. The times are different now. We, the USA, just don't have the money. If we continue to fight a war where it takes 100 000 dollars to kill few enemy untrained soldiers, we will ultimately loose the war.

 

The real question is, what is the purpose of the video? We all know how accurate the hellfire system is. Why do we need a video showing hellfire shooting untrained solders hiding in a mud-brick houses? By the way, the video shows a body of a person all torn apart by the missile. What is the purpose of that?

[Groove]

Your economic thoughts about missile prices are flawed.

 

The purpose of the video is to show the bad guys and potential bad guys what can happen to them anytime.

[topol-m]

Your economic thoughts about missile prices are flawed.

 

The purpose of the video is to show the bad guys and potential bad guys what can happen to them anytime.

 

I doubt this kind of footage is regularly released on Al Jazeera ;) And don`t think the "bad" guys will be very much scared and will throw away their AK-47s because of such videos.

[Groove]

I doubt this kind of footage is regularly released on Al Jazeera ;) And don`t think the "bad" guys will be very much scared and will throw away their AK-47s because of such videos.

 

It's not for the guy with the AK, it's for the guy which thinks about becoming a insurgent.

 

This videos are part of the PSYOPS campaign.

[topol-m]

It's not for the guy with the AK, it's for the guy which thinks about becoming a insurgent.

 

This videos are part of the PSYOPS campaign.

 

Do you really believe this video will have the effect expected? Its message is more like: next time spread widely, put some guys to spot the helis, and get some RPGs and iglas :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Your economic thoughts about missile prices are flawed.

In which way? How much is a Hellfire missile and how much does it cost to deliver it?

 

By the way we are tens of trillions of dollars in debt ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGGcs-LNwmc

 

Some estimates are that the United States Debt Obligations exceed world GDP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVOuC0qSrR8

 

If we do not stop spending, we will end up as Soviet Union, we will just collapse and implode ...

 

The purpose of the video is to show the bad guys and potential bad guys what can happen to them anytime.

Taliban have cable in their homes? I wonder which news network is predominant on their cable, is it FOX or MSNBC or CNN or ... Maybe, Taliban prefers to watch Desparate Housewifes?

[Shaman]

Pointless waste of Hellfire missile, unless it would exceed its shelf-life on the next day.

 

Have you noticed cat jumping on the roof? :) Kitty survived! :)