Who in the Lomac Community uses radar Automization?

[GGTharos]

Sure, here's an egg.

 

Some guy tries to support his position with implications of misbehavior or cheating on the other party, and this is called a straw man usually. The argument up to that point has no merit.

 

Do you see now?

 

Guys, throw an egg at me, but what I see here is some guy trying to support his position with arguments and a moderator(!) going personal on him.

Am I the only one thinking something's wrong? ;)

[104th_Crunch]

Looks to me as though someone went personal on the moderator, not the other way around.

 

Anyway, I am still confused by this whole debate. If you run a server and want to lock files disallowing LEVU, ERI or whatever, then do so. If you run a server and allow mods, then do so. There is a choice so why a debate? Everyone of course will have different preferences. I said this same thing in the LEAVU post months ago and the same argument is going on.

[Wilde]

I know Wilde, be honest with u, I got my cold shower as well, when I was starting to play FC1.12 online years back, and there was no LRM around. ;)

 

Yes, that was the sensation of finally flying against actual intelligence as opposed to artificial one. But do you remember how you managed to get comfortable with it? You only needed to get used to it and soon you had a leveled playing field, only less experience.

 

Now what I meant to say was, that with LEAVU/LRM that's not the case. You'll never have a leveled playing field unless you install it yourself or actively find servers that disallow it. That is after you found out there is something going on beyond vanilla FC on your server (hinting at the 33% voting answer 3). Some pilots may never find out and eventually quit flying, because they feel inapt or whatever.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the one to tell everyone how to configure their servers. I'm just raising my opinion about it. And to me the reasoning of the server-owners who oppose client side modding sounds quite logical.

[GGTharos]

You will never know how 'level' the playing field is or is not until you try it yourself.

 

LEAVU does not confer push-to-get-a-kill buttons or magical reveal the map sight.

[A.S]

Quite frankly even the TDC auto-slew IMO has more detrimental effects when flying F15...

 

And i have been flying F15 extensively for a long long period of time with both options, only to find that the default manual way is still more reliable in keeping track (providing one knows how to work it properly) due to automation sometimes interfering with manual input and 'snapping' in a wrong manner thus breaking track... very annoying to say the least

 

As for RUFOR radar automatization that was done in some LRM version for FC1, id go as far as calling it a total nightmare which liturally broke the Rus radar from being operated properly... i have no idea how anyone could have flown with that one...

 

==========================================================

 

Now regarding the ECM ranging.... well that is just overboard, IMO...

 

The most annoying thing to me about this is that it seems whenever some of us dont agree on the validity of such implementations, we just get the same answers that just go round and round in circles... Its as if both Yoda and GG feel they must always defend their implementations at any cost, and of course can never be proven wrong....

 

Wouldnt it just be easier to release a more simplified version and give users the choice to use the more 'questionable' aspects such as ECM range only if they want to?

 

Because from the tone i hear reverberating here is.... "Do it our way or the highway, because we know these things better than you"... which is quite sad i must add...

 

I say make a clean version without the range hacks first, and then mabe the community can take a look at it at a more objective angle...

 

==========================================================

 

What worries me most is what 'other' scripts are possible...

 

I can only recall back in my 504 days the internal scripts GG and the gang ran months before actually giving it away to the community in FC1 (im not gonna go into details as some might not like it)... But lest face it, when these things get developed they stay internal and can be misused, even if there is no bad intentions present...

 

With that said, how would one trust it to be different and 'fair' this time as both GG and Yoda claim it to be? (Im not trying to slant you guys in any way so please dont take me the wrong way, im just saying things how i feel them)

 

I say default export.lua is the ONLY way to go for public day to day servers, hand in hand with appropriate integrity checks, just like we used to to before (take the old 504 server for example which ran all exports OFF and worked great, with stats great missions etc etc)... This is the only way to ensure trust in the community...

 

afterall 90% of all online pilots dont go that far as installing intricate lua mods for their alter 'figher pilot' ego needs anyway...

 

Now as far as events and special missions are concerned, we should use these tools as needed to simulate different combat environments... Now there is where Datalinks, ATC software, whatever else would be great to have!

 

just my two cents on this...

 

Cheers!

 

Well...we have to see things from both sides...good and bad.....appreciate developements....consider misuse etc etc.... and to be honest - even though i like what yoda is doing - you have a point and well written IMO.

(i said it once - if some remeber: the nuke was built in good believe yet in killed a city)

 

Personally...i cant use Leavu (no screen) ..i tried TWS mod...but i can live without it...doesnt make my life so much easier...but its a logical thing also IMO ..generally and regards how those radars worked in those generations.

 

Whatsoever....in one point i have to make a clean decission and those are the rules for TCL in respect to everyone !

Here, the game has to be played in a way, how it is meant to be from the scratch...except normal settings like gfx or fps changes (thats ok).

 

oh well....then me out here again ...leaving the love story you guys ...:smilewink:

[Breakshot]

Looks to me as though someone went personal on the moderator, not the other way around.

 

Sorry if i came across like that, im not here to start a fight or anyting... I have reworded my previous post above...

 

Now lets get back on the ECM range thing... question is, can it be removed from the mod? And if so wouldnt it be a good compromise, for those who still want the TWS autoslew...

[MoGas]

I dont think it needs to be removed, what needs to be removed are personal problems between some guys on this forum!

 

Any topic gets ridiculous after some guys jumbing in and make a nonsense story about it.

[RvEYoda]

I probably have around 100 hrs flying the fc2 F-15 using eri radar improvements.

If you have found something in the ERI pack that makes the radar less effective I'm all ears.

Such problems must be removed asap, though right now I cannot find any issues myself.

(Eri for fc2 is not the same as lrm for fc1)

 

I'm thinking about putting in some algorithms for the ECCM that mimics the effect of

getting better an better range approximation rather than just having one large error:

The more times you scan a target and the less predictable your relative flight paths are,

the better the approximation

Edited April 1, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

Sorry if i came across like that, im not here to start a fight or anyting... I have reworded my previous post above...

 

Thank you.

 

Now lets get back on the ECM range thing... question is, can it be removed from the mod? And if so wouldnt it be a good compromise, for those who still want the TWS autoslew...

I would like to know the reason you would like to see it gone - please don't make up things, just say why straight out. I'm not interested in making fun of it, I'm just asking your raw opinion. Even if 'I think it sucks' is your reason, that's fine.

 

To answer your question: Of course it can be removed, that isn't the problem. The problem is that anyone can put it back in, ie. unless you put really tight controls on it, anyone can do whatever they like.

 

You can choose one of two ways:

 

1. Host a download from your server with your specific tweak and export.lua, and integrity check'em and have people use that (including a stock export.lua, or whatever)

 

The price you pay: You might run into a nightmare scenario being compatible with other servers.

 

 

2. Open it up, use it, don't worry about it.

 

The price you pay: People might script some surprising things, but by and large it isn't going to alter the way you shoot them down. As long as you can think about how they could use their local exports, you're basically ready for anything, because in the end they can't really change how their in-game plane works. They still have the same kinematic and missile limitations, and same observation limitations when using their sensors.

 

 

Should the case be that something like leavu was exploited to do something completely off-the-wall and truly wrong, we already have plans to help control such a thing.

 

In short, because the only thing that is allowed is export of local data, the worst someone can do is likely you have already wished of doing with your own radar data. In other words, you can anticipate it and you can know the limitations.

 

And if you ever have questions regarding any such things, we'll sure try to have answers.

Edited April 1, 2010 by GGTharos

[RvEYoda]

The only real solution, as said before, is for someone with good programming/luagui knowledge

to integrate an automatic mod-downloader for servers inside fc2.

 

Locking down all servers "barebone" is not going to evolve the game very much.

[Maximus]

I dont think it needs to be removed, what needs to be removed are personal problems between some guys on this forum!

 

Any topic gets ridiculous after some guys jumbing in and make a nonsense story about it.

 

I agree with this comments. it's very very Minor mods. I do not see any huge difference.

[Frostie]

The mod has between 10nm and 20nm error at about 40nm. Real bearing-only TMA will likely nail the target down within 2nm at that range, if not better.

 

But hey, if you want classified figures, I don't have them - actual performance figures are as classified as the max range on that simulated radar you're using. I'm just aware of the method and I took the short time needed to work it out. The error can easily be larger at a longer range, but it probably won't be as attrocious as the estimation on this mod.

 

Edit: it just occurred to me, are you referring to the FC1 implementation bug where it gave you the EXACT range instead of jumping around? This is gone in the FC2 mod.

Of course I was referring to the FC 1 version of the ECM ranging, what other one would I have access to ;)

 

I'm glad you've realised the error of this mod and have now addressed it accordingly, progress at least, thankyou for your endeavour, but unfortunately you've created a sect of F-15 fans who believe the FC 1 version to be realistic.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, the behavior in FC1 was a bug - it used to work correctly, I can't recall what caused it to break.

[Wilde]

You will never know how 'level' the playing field is or is not until you try it yourself.

 

LEAVU does not confer push-to-get-a-kill buttons or magical reveal the map sight.

I know what LEAVU does. I have read the other thread. There is no need to talk to me in a condescending way.

 

There is not much for me to try. You guys didn't implement anything for the planes I can fly properly. And neither did anyone else. And I'm not blaming you for it.

 

But I'm skeptical anyways. The reason is, that the whole thing is completely in-transparent. You see, if I join the server without it I have no idea who uses it. You on the other hand know at least a few persons using it, namely yourself and your buddies on your LEAVU-server.

 

Then it's open source. Nobody can check which version you're running or what you've tuned it into. You guys seemed to try calming everybody down how dlink was limited to LOS, or just recently how ECCM gives very inaccurate information. But how do I know what people change it into when I don't even know they're running "enhanced" FC2 at the first place?

 

Ultimately this isn't specifically about LEAVU. It's about the benefits and dangers of lua-exports. Everybody dreams of a custom pit of highest standards, which surely needs exported data in realtime. See, if you really cared about that issue you could have influenced ED to employ CyBerkut's suggestion from like 5 months ago. Of course, why bother when you already have what you want...

[GGTharos]

I know what LEAVU does. I have read the other thread. There is no need to talk to me in a condescending way.

 

I was not being condescending, just matter-of-fact. Sorry.

 

There is not much for me to try. You guys didn't implement anything for the planes I can fly properly. And neither did anyone else. And I'm not blaming you for it.

Which are, if you don't mind my asking?

 

But I'm skeptical anyways. The reason is, that the whole thing is completely in-transparent. You see, if I join the server without it I have no idea who uses it. You on the other hand know at least a few persons using it, namely yourself and your buddies on your LEAVU-server.

Yeah, but do you need to know? :)

It's like evading an ET. You assume it's been launched, you don't want to see it. Just a suggestion.

 

Then it's open source. Nobody can check which version you're running or what you've tuned it into. You guys seemed to try calming everybody down how dlink was limited to LOS, or just recently how ECCM gives very inaccurate information. But how do I know what people change it into when I don't even know they're running "enhanced" FC2 at the first place?

As far as getting data out of the game beyond local exports, that isn't possible. I don't know what you mean by 'enhanced' - I can think of a few things, but just tossing out FUD doesn't help.

 

Ultimately this isn't specifically about LEAVU. It's about the benefits and dangers of lua-exports. Everybody dreams of a custom pit of highest standards, which surely needs exported data in realtime. See, if you really cared about that issue you could have influenced ED to employ CyBerkut's suggestion from like 5 months ago. Of course, why bother when you already have what you want...

Here are the assumptions that you made incorrectly:

 

1. What CyBerkut found is something Yoda and GG didn't know about (no offense to CyBerkut. Good work finding those - at least someone tried)

2. As above, but ED not knowing.

3. That we didn't ask.

 

We already knew the capability existed, ED knew it existed, and not all our sources are open.

 

We asked for a LOT of things but there was either no time to implement or they were out of scope for the project.

[Grimes]

Yeah, but do you need to know? :)

It's like evading an ET. You assume it's been launched, you don't want to see it. Just a suggestion.

 

 

Once again gamesmanship and "Reality Sim" are getting their ideas blended. You can't join a server with the ideals that everyone is playing the same game when someone else can join the server with a different game that has "more realistic instruments" without anyone's knowledge. Are you saying we should assume everyone is cheating? If so thats just a broken game system. Do flight sims exist in some other dimension where playing such a way doesn't constitute a cheat. I find it hard to believe that in the entire gaming world that it is simply OK to enter a server using additional apps that plug into the game and offer you enhancements to your instruments.

 

All I'm trying to say is that you can't write programs and utilities that improve the avionics of an aircraft, fly online with them, and expect to be praised for keeping the game balanced. You might be praised for making it or for trying to improve the community. But You can't ignore the fact that such software doesn't get used by everyone. They have to download it, install it, and figure it out manually. And your answer to it being unfair to those who don't know or use it is "tough luck" or "get with the times."

 

I fail to understand how those are valid replies because they are the exact same things a guy with wall hacks, aimbots, or speedhacks would tell people complaining about their cheats.

 

 

IF YOU READ ANYTHING FROM THIS POST READ THE FOLLOWING

My solution. Make your own standalone mod. Dont make it part of everyone elses FC2. Make it your own. Call it FC2: LEAVU or something, just don't make it part of FC2 Vanilla. You can't have enhanced realism for the few who want it. It has to be for everyone. If everyone joins a server running your mod then everyone will be on the same page. If everyone joins a vanilla FC2 server then everyone has the same game with the same pros/cons to the aircraft they use.

[Wilde]

Yeah, but do you need to know? :)

It's like evading an ET. You assume it's been launched, you don't want to see it. Just a suggestion.

Well, I don't even know if the server allows lua-export. I can't check the server's configs or verify it's script-integrity to mine.

 

If I knew for sure I was in a vanilla game I would happily make use of ECM together with my radar knowing that you'd only get a bearing. But if I don't know I have to assume you make use of LEAVU or else I'd get surrounded by your whole crew. And if I didn't know about there being LEAVU and you using it I'd simply fly into your bunch ECM'ing all the way making it super easy for you to kill me. I think there's a whole lot of difference between the possible scenarios.

 

As far as getting data out of the game beyond local exports, that isn't possible.

I know! But there is a whole lot of stuff that can be calculated from the output of multiple pilots. It changes various game mechanics a lot. It goes as far as people can implement things like auto-track. Yoda mentioned in the other thread that it is possible to automatically point the radar in the right direction for a specific target at any given time. Not only does a mod like this provide superior situational awareness but you can go as far as having sort of an "aimbot" as ridiculous as it sounds.

 

We asked for a LOT of things but there was either no time to implement or they were out of scope for the project.

I'm sure you did. Many of the changes are great for sure. Over all FC2 is a much better simulation compared to FC1.1. Yet forgive me if I'm not so happy with particular developments that coincide with your preferences. It's like a red line and I can understand your thinking. But it's not easy to brush it off. Makes me feel like giving in to being brainwashed just to be allowed to watch my favorite tv-show.

[104th_Crunch]

...when someone else can join the server with a different game that has "more realistic instruments" without anyone's knowledge...

 

Simple solution is note any common mods in the Server mission brief that is available before you even click join on the server listing. Up front, so it's common knowledge.

[YorZor]

It's funny how you all make such a "huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge problem" out of nothing. Damn you should make some damn good television together, world's finest on a forum talking in the most childish way. Good luck with your "simulator". If you still believe that, well let's just say it explains enough.

 

You guys are afraid of change, which is funny in itself because you asked for change, you got it now and the complaining begins (yet it started before 2.0). Leavu is an option, it doesn't tell where every fly is in the universe, you can all sleep happily ever after.

[RvEYoda]

Once again gamesmanship and "Reality Sim" are getting their ideas blended. You can't join a server with the ideals that everyone is playing the same game when someone else can join the server with a different game that has "more realistic instruments" without anyone's knowledge. Are you saying we should assume everyone is cheating? If so thats just a broken game system. Do flight sims exist in some other dimension where playing such a way doesn't constitute a cheat. I find it hard to believe that in the entire gaming world that it is simply OK to enter a server using additional apps that plug into the game and offer you enhancements to your instruments.

 

All I'm trying to say is that you can't write programs and utilities that improve the avionics of an aircraft, fly online with them, and expect to be praised for keeping the game balanced. You might be praised for making it or for trying to improve the community. But You can't ignore the fact that such software doesn't get used by everyone. They have to download it, install it, and figure it out manually. And your answer to it being unfair to those who don't know or use it is "tough luck" or "get with the times."

 

I fail to understand how those are valid replies because they are the exact same things a guy with wall hacks, aimbots, or speedhacks would tell people complaining about their cheats.

 

 

IF YOU READ ANYTHING FROM THIS POST READ THE FOLLOWING

My solution. Make your own standalone mod. Dont make it part of everyone elses FC2. Make it your own. Call it FC2: LEAVU or something, just don't make it part of FC2 Vanilla. You can't have enhanced realism for the few who want it. It has to be for everyone. If everyone joins a server running your mod then everyone will be on the same page. If everyone joins a vanilla FC2 server then everyone has the same game with the same pros/cons to the aircraft they use.

 

I take it you are against programs such as Touch Buddy then also, since they only bundle

avionics for some airplanes? (or even allows F-15 style rwrs on russian jets)

Nothing wrong with being against external tools in general as far as I see it.

 

Cause leavu is nothing more than a framework for creating external avionics for any jet or sim.

I could hook it up to F4aF if I wanted to, that wouldnt matter. The difference is, Just because I

make a software that can be used to create instruments for any jet, it is not my responsibility to

create profiles for all jets, just like it is not the responsibility of the touch buddy creators to create

profiles for all jets "in the spirit of game balance".

 

If people had just stopped arguing and being afraid of something that has been there since lofc1 and spent

just half that time producing new content we would probably have several working RU instruments already.

Instead certain people have actually run around different teamspeak/ventrilo servers in the sole purpose of

starting rumors and spreading crap about me and others. Then these people show up in these threads here

to act all nice... Paploo used to say "they smile to your face and stab you in the back".

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Toadster]

I don't use it...

[Grimes]

I want to give up on this thread. Time and time again I have tried to point out the precise reasoning for why I think such programs are detrimental to the multiplayer experience and time and time again you or other supporters fire back completely missing the point or finding some random tangent to discuss in your reply.

 

Its frustrating that you think its a which hunt and that we are all out to get you. I've never tried to purposefully make that argument, most of my points are about gameplay mechanics and balance, because that's all I really care about. I could care less of what you did or didn't do in the past. I care about what you are doing now. I like it when games are free of questionable activities. It ruins the fun and your mood once you start to wonder if a player has something they shouldn't have.

 

In ARMA you can't play with ACE mod (their realism mod) features in non ACE mod servers nor can you play in ACE mod servers without the ACE mod installed. Why must LockOn be different? Why should the players with more realistic radars be allowed in the same server as those with less realistic radars? If you reply to this post, answer me that.

[Kuky]

Here is one very simple example of why LEAVU is so wrong:

 

2x F-15C aircraft in fight with 1 (or 2 or more) aircraft... they attack one by one by extending and watching on their MFD what the other guy sees as at any point in time one of their radars is looking at bandints... it means I can have my 6 on the bandit and still see his heading, altitude, distance (and maybe more depending what LEAVU is programmed to share)... this is utterly wrong and against the spirit of fareplay as FC2 does not allow this... can I be any more clear on this?

 

And to this individual talking about being scared of the change... I have to say you have no clue and your post is just useless because you see FC2 has brought change from FC1 and according to you we are now all scared about it and as far as I know we are all supporting these changes so just either post something correct and useful or refrain from posting

 

We have proven that ECM ranging is completely off how it works in LUA script and how it works in reality and fact that people still want to call it more realistic is nothing but personal opinion (not objective or factual). If people want to have extra things they can do so since the game is very open to modding and changing many things but please no need to convince me or many others that what they are doing is alright. You are entitled to your own game and have it the way you want... you can use LEAVU and have datalink on the F-15C in FC2 but do not call it fair play because it isn't. If FC2 had such feature I don't care because we would then have a fair play as everyone would have it.

 

Bottom line is even though we were told how many of the features of LRM and LEAVU are realistic it has been proven they are not (not all, but at least some). This shows that statements like this "it is realistic" are not to be taken for granted and trusted but questioned and if possible either proven wrong or true. So please Yoda, GG and supporters of LEAVU and LUA scripting do not state that you are right or know better all the time as clearly you don't... fact is these affect OTHERS and if you don't care for affecting others don't go defensive when people get personal and call it irresponsible etc. Yoda saying "I made this program because I wanted this and that does not make me responsible what other may use it for" is exactly that... irresponsible... because he doesn't care how it affects others, only cares what he wants to have... but then again this is fine because we do have integrity check available so LETS USE IT!

Edited April 2, 2010 by Kuky

[GGTharos]

I want to give up on this thread. Time and time again I have tried to point out the precise reasoning for why I think such programs are detrimental to the multiplayer experience and time and time again you or other supporters fire back completely missing the point or finding some random tangent to discuss in your reply.

 

Okay. So I will answer very simply: I don't agree.

 

Its frustrating that you think its a which hunt and that we are all out to get you.

 

Are we living in the same world? ;)

But that's beside the point.

 

I've never tried to purposefully make that argument, most of my points are about gameplay mechanics and balance, because that's all I really care about. I could care less of what you did or didn't do in the past. I care about what you are doing now. I like it when games are free of questionable activities. It ruins the fun and your mood once you start to wonder if a player has something they shouldn't have.

 

And I claim that you're overreacting :)

You want tight control and I understand that and why. But in the end, we don't agree.

 

The deal is, if I come to your house I won't use this stuff.

[G3]

after an hour or so of sifting thru that and as exciting as it was,

i voted i still don't know.

 

what is radar automization ?