My A-10C preparation

[Alex_rcpilot]

Hi Shawn, that could be someone who knows your hobbies. Watch out later till (s)he emerges. lol

 

Back to the topic. If I make stuff to share with people, it's best to set a high standard as there're many hard core guys out there. And it's often easier to lower the bar once you have already achieved it. That's why I did things this way. Each design is consistently repeatable.

[Deadman]

Do you mean the individual Lights in the panel or the complete panel part number?

 

That'd be too easy! :D

 

But thanks for the offer - I'll sure get back on that!

Actually - do you know the size/part number of the caution lights?

 

Cheers,

Stefan

[Deadman]

It also sounds very reasonable to me to base my guesstimations on that, but if the fact proves otherwise, I'd be curious to know why.

 

Deadman, should there be any discrepancy from Stefan's quotation, could it be because adjacent panels don't always have their bundary line sitting exactly at multiples of 3/8"? I figured that could be possible because those panels aren't supposed to be swapped around.

Ffrist the top Dzus conector as you will see in the attachment is the part that is .375

Panels can be and usual are mixed a bit that is one of the reasons Dzus rail is used if you look in the the real A-10 flight manual in the cockpit lay out in the back. There are several different lay outs depending on the time frame mission ,and upgrade on the A-10A at the time. For scaling in the beginning of collecting panel i used this reference (Attached) for figuring out panel size along with scaling the panel at 5.75 wide.

 

After purchasing different controls (complete Panels with switches) I have found there are many different thing about the panels that you can't tell from the drawings. Guessing that a panel size bye using the Dzus or panel fasteners is one method but I would not ever refer to a panel being so many tall.

 

For the limited resources that the modeling team at ED has I would say they or He has done a fantastic job

 

And do you happen to have some data regarding the CDU dimensions? I'd really appreciate your info as I've been trying to perfect this unit. Thank you.

 

Dimensionsof the CDU-900 are on the Collins site 7.125 H x5.75 W http://www.rockwellcollins.com/ecat/gs/CDU-900.html

Buttons for military controls are normal 0.375 inch sq , Screen size 3.25 in. x 2.60 in.

As for your design on the CDU panel, I think your making it to complicated. The main panel i think is flat with just a white light ring. I have the older style CDU the top plate is solid cast aluminum. with in the panel are flanged buttons sitting on a printed circuit board (PCB).

The older CDU is light with bulbs I have a newer bezel that has the same types of buttons that sit on a PCB but with a sheet of EL between the buttons and PCB. There are holes in the El sheet that small nubs or posts go through to depress a small rounded switch that is built in to the PCB. This type of design would fit in to the back of the panel ,then sandwiched in with a mostly solid 0.064 inch aluminum plate behind the light panel ,with out getting in the way of the Dzus connector.

Then you could mount your LCD or10 line LED screen behind the plate.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Deadman

[Dropship Pilot]

For the limited resources that the modeling team at ED has I would say they or He has done a fantastic job

I can't agree more and I didn't want to bash the ED team in any way with my comment above. Nevertheless, some parts in the ED cockpit differ from the real deal. Some of these differences may be explained with better useability (the omnition of the anti-G-connector and the oxigen connector) but others look like simple errors (the slots of the DZUS connectors should all line up as these are no screws and there are no fractions in the DZUS spacing).

I know this is nitpicking (or should I say DZUS counting? :D) but if you spend a lot of time/money into a pit you want to get it as close to the original as possible.

 

Do you mean the individual Lights in the panel or the complete panel part number?

It would be great if you could get me the dimensions and/or part number of the individual lights.

 

 

Cheers,

Stefan

Edited December 21, 2010 by Dropship Pilot

[Deadman]

Well I know i am not the only one there are a few collectors of A-10 parts.I have been collecting 7 years now I just got a card from eBay and a most valued member from PayPal over all the cash that has been spent.

The only real way to judge parts is to have them. You have no idea how pricey some things can get.

I am not sure what you mean by the slots of the DZUS connectors should all line up? witch way?

 

The caution Annunciation lights are Korry 19623 Assy 006654 8037-1 to 8037-45 yes there are 48 in the panel that is just the first and last numbers.

http://www.esterline.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=4Wv6%2b71ohHQ%3d&tabid=1502 this will give you their dimensions these are the new units

 

 

They measure in inches 0.963 wide and 0.345 tall just the front lens holder. The panel is 5.75 wide and 5.63 tall the unlit face panel is 5.69 wide and 5.57 tall held on by 4 screws

 

I can't agree more and I didn't want to bash the ED team in any way with my comment above. Nevertheless, some parts in the ED cockpit differ from the real deal. Some of these differences may be explained with better useability (the omnition of the anti-G-connector and the oxigen connector) but others look like simple errors (the slots of the DZUS connectors should all line up as these are no screws and there are no fractions in the DZUS spacing).

I know this is nitpicking (or should I say DZUS counting? :D) but if you spend a lot of time/money into a pit you want to get it as close to the original as possible.

 

 

It would be great if you could get me the dimensions and/or part number of the individual lights.

 

 

Cheers,

Stefan

Edited December 21, 2010 by Deadman

[Alex_rcpilot]

Thank you Deadman, those are really helpful information. I still have a few questions however, hope you don't mind.

 

.....as you will see in the attachment is the part that....

 

..... i used this reference (Attached)......

 

Are we missing an attachment? All I could see is the Rockwell link. AFAIK, the forum wouldn't allow any upload recently.

 

For the limited resources that the modeling team at ED has I would say they or He has done a fantastic job

 

Sure they did, and they've offered us a great reference to start with. All we need to do is cross referencing with a couple of other sources to figure out more accurate data.

 

Dimensionsof the CDU-900 are on the Collins site 7.125 H x5.75 W http://www.rockwellcollins.com/ecat/gs/CDU-900.html

Buttons for military controls are normal 0.375 inch sq , Screen size 3.25 in. x 2.60 in.

 

Cool, Chibawang also posted this link on #74 of this same thread, and that's where I got the outline and screen dimensions from. But I didn't know the 0.375" sqr button size, I was going for 10mm, your information was really in-time. BTW, the CDU-900 on the Rockwell page looks a lot different from our other references, is this a different model?

 

As for your design on the CDU panel, I think your making it to complicated. The main panel i think is flat with just a white light ring. I have the older style CDU the top plate is solid cast aluminum. with in the panel are flanged buttons sitting on a printed circuit board (PCB).

 

oops, I think I was misled by this mockup from Driven Technologies:

I based most of my structural assumptions on this image, I took measurement from a bird's eye screenshot in the DCS cockpit, and cross referenced with a cockpit arrangement diagram someone posted not long ago. (is that thread deleted?)

 

If the protruding white ring doesn't exist, I will remove it from my design. Then it would be less expensive and more realistic. I thought it was there to prevent inadvertent inputs.

 

Could you clarify how thick the top plate is, and how high those buttons are above the main panel? Thanks.

 

The older CDU is light with bulbs I have a newer bezel that has the same types of buttons that sit on a PCB but with a sheet of EL between the buttons and PCB. There are holes in the El sheet that small nubs or posts go through to depress a small rounded switch that is built in to the PCB. This type of design would fit in to the back of the panel ,then sandwiched in with a mostly solid 0.064 inch aluminum plate behind the light panel ,with out getting in the way of the Dzus connector.

Then you could mount your LCD or10 line LED screen behind the plate.

 

From your description on the newer bezel, it sounds like the real CDU uses SMD tactiles like this:

 

Pressing one of these switches feels like pressing a button on a regular joystick. It makes a clicking sound and the button merely sinks any distance.

 

Do the CDU buttons feel this way, or do they feel like computer keyboard while pressed?

 

Thank you for your time. I've started purchasing materials to experiment on. I will upload some new render works when the next revision is complete.

 

 

Best regards,

Alex

[Total]

"Dome switch" is the normal terminology :)

 

The 188th is repairing the UFC's and throttle for the Air Force since vendor support was no longer available. No doubt that the UFC and the CDU share the same style keypads.

 

Here's an excerpt from the following article:

 

The AIS members found that rather than replacing the $17,805 controller - a standard practice - they could simply replace its electrical dome switches - a part that costs about $7 per switch - and mend cracks to get the control working again.

 

http://www.swtimes.com/news/collection_d65eca3e-a0db-11df-903d-001cc4c03286.html

 

I work with dome switches and regular tactile switches on a daily basis and their reliability is not really high. The domes tends to collapse and not snap back. This results in that key always being being pressed since the dome is making contact. IMHO, they have no place in military or any other type of rugged equipment.

 

The front piece of rubber with the keys rasied on it is surface referred to as a membrane. In some circles, dome switches are referred to as membrane switches. Just depends on the application really.

 

As far as a simpit is concerned, I would suggest going with push button tactiles or regular pushbutton switches with a plastic cap that snaps to the switch shaft. You'll spend alot less on these than you will having a membrane made and etching the board for SMT or thru-hole dome switches. That and getting the clearances "just right" will drive you nuts as well.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Total

[Dropship Pilot]

Deadman,

thanks for the numbers and the data sheet! :)

 

I am not sure what you mean by the slots of the DZUS connectors should all line up? witch way?

The DZUS system uses a bayonet locking mechanism. Thus the slots of the DZUS heads should line up along the rail they are mounted to - usually from front to rear of the aircraft. There's a slight variation of about +/-5 degrees from the ideal axis. A larger deviation shows that the stud is unlocked and thus unsafe.

Figure 39 on page 54 of the DCS A-10C Manual is a good example for the orientation of the locked DZUS studs.

 

Cheers,

Stefan

Edited December 21, 2010 by Dropship Pilot

[Deadman]

I do not have the new style CDU . I have the old one ans some bezels so I cannot take any measurements for you that woulds be accurate on the new CDU, the measurement for the buttons the difference between 0.375 or 3/8 of a inch (9.52) mm)and 10 mm is very small as you can see 0.48 mm i would use what ever engravable tops were currently made for the push button tactile switches as Total suggested.

 

V yes i agree if the control head dzus connector are connected in a line on the rail they should line up down that rail

 

I reup[p loaded the PDF attachment that shows panel information

[Alex_rcpilot]

"Dome switch" is the normal terminology :)

 

The 188th is repairing the UFC's and throttle for the Air Force since vendor support was no longer available. No doubt that the UFC and the CDU share the same style keypads.

 

Here's an excerpt from the following article:

 

 

 

http://www.swtimes.com/news/collection_d65eca3e-a0db-11df-903d-001cc4c03286.html

 

I work with dome switches and regular tactile switches on a daily basis and their reliability is not really high. The domes tends to collapse and not snap back. This results in that key always being being pressed since the dome is making contact. IMHO, they have no place in military or any other type of rugged equipment.

 

The front piece of rubber with the keys rasied on it is surface referred to as a membrane. In some circles, dome switches are referred to as membrane switches. Just depends on the application really.

 

As far as a simpit is concerned, I would suggest going with push button tactiles or regular pushbutton switches with a plastic cap that snaps to the switch shaft. You'll spend alot less on these than you will having a membrane made and etching the board for SMT or thru-hole dome switches. That and getting the clearances "just right" will drive you nuts as well.

It's really nice to have your reply, Total.

 

When I saw the term "dome switch", the first thing came to my mind was one of these, regularly found on washing machines:

I never thought anything like this could be found on a cockpit keypad, even though it's hidden within. I agree with what you said, they are more unreliable compared to regular switches.

 

Tactiles and push buttons are better, I will look for a reliable model and build a cap on top of it. Thank you for sharing the info.

 

 

Regards,

Alex

[Alex_rcpilot]

No problem with the new CDU, Deadman. You've already provided a lot of valuable information. Yeah I can download the PDF now. That helps a lot. I see it doesn't say anything about how far the Dzus are from either the top or the bottom edge, it helps understanding your point.

 

I should keep working on the CDU with what I have. Thank you again for your help.

 

 

Regards,

Alex

[Dropship Pilot]

Found a good example of how the buttons are done in the real CDUs:

http://www.esterline.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=0yl6H7vMWls%3d&tabid=1438

 

If you look under 492 panel technology you even find the travel rage of 0.015" to 0.02".

 

Cheers,

Stefan

[Dropship Pilot]

I see it doesn't say anything about how far the Dzus are from either the top or the bottom edge

 

Actually, MS25212 does say how far the DZUS (centerpoints) are from the top and the bottom:

0.562" +.000 -.015 that is a maximum of 0.562" and a minimum of 0.547" from the edge of the panel (or 1.5 DZUS units :music_whistling:). This is the same for all panels.

 

Cheers,

Stefan

[Alex_rcpilot]

Found a good example of how the buttons are done in the real CDUs:

http://www.esterline.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=0yl6H7vMWls%3d&tabid=1438

 

If you look under 492 panel technology you even find the travel rage of 0.015" to 0.02".

 

Cheers,

Stefan

 

Coooool stuff! That looks almost exactly like Deadman described. Except for the light source. I think this one uses LED's instead of EL sheet. And they put a diffuser plate on top on the LED's to spread out the light.

 

BTW, Can anyone confirm that the panel back light is blue? Thanks.

 

 

Regards,

Alex

[Alex_rcpilot]

Actually, MS25212 does say how far the DZUS (centerpoints) are from the top and the bottom:

0.562" +.000 -.015 that is a maximum of 0.562" and a minimum of 0.547" from the edge of the panel (or 1.5 DZUS units :music_whistling:). This is the same for all panels.

 

Cheers,

Stefan

 

oops, tell me how tricky it is to read a scanned image. lol

 

Hey, check out these two civilian product specs, it'd be nice to have a side profile like these for the A-10C unit. lol

http://www.cmcelectronics.ca/pdf/cma3000.pdf

http://www.interfacedisplays.com/pdfs/ds_MCDU.pdf

Edited December 21, 2010 by Alex_rcpilot

[Dropship Pilot]

Hi Alex,

 

don't discard the raised white frame that separates the key areas! It's actually there:

 

Ok, the one above is not the C-version, but you can see it here too:

 

 

Original page: http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/2007/04/a-10c-thunderbolt-ii-a-k-a-warthog/

 

Cheers,

Stefan

Edited December 23, 2010 by Dropship Pilot

[Alex_rcpilot]

Thanks for the pics. Wow I'm confused now, it's already called CDU-900,how many different sub versions have they made?

 

Judging from the picture above, I'd say the frame and buttons look like they're 0.1" high, pretty close to 3mm. Thickness of the finishing is still unknown. I sent a mail to an aviation enthusiast this morning, hope he happens to know someone with the right access.

[Dropship Pilot]

Is there any "official" source that the A-10 CDU is a CDU-900?

The similarities are there for sure. However, there are also some obvious differences:

- the location of the inner DZUS studs

- the shape of the keys and the keyboard layout

- the number of characters and lines given for the display (24/10 for the A-10C and 22/8 for the CDU-900)

 

Cheers,

Stefan

[Alex_rcpilot]

oops, I'm not sure. Lots of guys were quoting the Rockwell site, so I took it for granted that A-10C has CDU-900 installed. I saw Rockwell Collins on display during the Zhuhai airshow, but it was not until the show was over that I realized they actually made CDU for A-10's. Damn... it might have been a lot easier to get some information face to face than sending emails.

[hassata]

Awesome stuff. I keep this thread handy for when people tell me I'm into this sim stuff way too much. I think the only thing showing them the thread accomplishes is worry them some more as to where this dark road is taking me :)

[Deadman]

Is there any "official" source that the A-10 CDU is a CDU-900?

The similarities are there for sure. However, there are also some obvious differences:

- the location of the inner DZUS studs

- the shape of the keys and the keyboard layout

- the number of characters and lines given for the display (24/10 for the A-10C and 22/8 for the CDU-900)

 

Cheers,

Stefan

AFAIK There is no Official documentation saying the CDU is a 900 made by Collins. Months ago wile searching for parts it was the only CDU that appear to fit the description with many sub models

 

oops, tell me how tricky it is to read a scanned image. lol

 

Hey, check out these two civilian product specs, it'd be nice to have a side profile like these for the A-10C unit. lol

http://www.cmcelectronics.ca/pdf/cma3000.pdf

http://www.interfacedisplays.com/pdfs/ds_MCDU.pdf

 

Brousing through these two links i have found that Interface made the CDU

it was posted under the news section

http://www.interfacedisplays.com/pdfs/pr_07-0815_A10_DEP.pdf

 

Coooool stuff! That looks almost exactly like Deadman described. Except for the light source. I think this one uses LED's instead of EL sheet. And they put a diffuser plate on top on the LED's to spread out the light.

 

BTW, Can anyone confirm that the panel back light is blue? Thanks.

 

 

 

Regards,

Alex

 

The back lighting is not blue it is a green/blue or more commonly listed as cyan. to conform with spec for NVGs

[Alex_rcpilot]

Brousing through these two links i have found that Interface made the CDU

it was posted under the news section

http://www.interfacedisplays.com/pdfs/pr_07-0815_A10_DEP.pdf

Again, I carelessly overlooked important information :music_whistling:

 

The back lighting is not blue it is a green/blue or more commonly listed as cyan. to conform with spec for NVGs

 

Thanks Deadman, I happen to have a bunch of cyan LED's, it's time to use them. :)

[rocketeer]

Back to the topic on the knobs on the Inter panel. I heard someone said the rotation part is not functional, but in the sim each of the 8 knobs can be both pulled/pushed and rotated. The 9th knob 'HM' seems to be only pulled and not rotated. I've found a way to make both the pull switch and pot-like rotation but is the latter even necessary? Is the master volume switch supposed to control all volumes on the 8 knobs such that these 8 knobs are just push-pull functions with the rotation on all 8 knobs being irrelevant? If so we can just get push pull switches for all and forget about the rotation part.

[Snoopy]

Back to the topic on the knobs on the Inter panel. I heard someone said the rotation part is not functional, but in the sim each of the 8 knobs can be both pulled/pushed and rotated. The 9th knob 'HM' seems to be only pulled and not rotated. I've found a way to make both the pull switch and pot-like rotation but is the latter even necessary? Is the master volume switch supposed to control all volumes on the 8 knobs such that these 8 knobs are just push-pull functions with the rotation on all 8 knobs being irrelevant? If so we can just get push pull switches for all and forget about the rotation part.

 

Yes the knobs are pull/push and turn. The turn is for volume on that specific item, say you need to here the VHF radios loudly but the crew chief is still hooked up to the intercomm, you could turn the crew chief down while not having to mess with the master volume. I've had this done to me many times, give the pilot commands/input but he can't here me because he turned just the intercomm down.

[rocketeer]

thanks for confirming the functions. Now I can proceed to build the knobs accordingly.