Sustained Turn Rate of Fighters

[Yo-Yo]

Yeah, well before you GLOC you can pull 13-14G's for a split second on an instantaneous turn, it all comes down to pilot skill when you have the ACS limiter off.... Which is how its supposed to be.... F15 IIRC doesn't have a limiter.Currently with it on it feels like a simplified flight model which doesn't require much skill to dogfight in. You don't have to turn off any GLOC failure....

 

Any chance this will be done in the next patch?

 

You have only 3-4 s before you get blackout and GLOC. OK, imagine you gain spare 4-5 deg/s of ROT for only 3-4 s. You can win maximum 15 deg of total angle. In 9 cases from 10 it's not enough to kill but you are garanteed cold meat because of GLOC. I do not speak that before you gained the position to the final pull-up you can not handle G-force so carefully w/o ACS so you can not be shure you have no GLOC before you have a chance to shoot.

[RvEYoda]

You have only 3-4 s before you get blackout and GLOC. OK, imagine you gain spare 4-5 deg/s of ROT for only 3-4 s. You can win maximum 15 deg of total angle. In 9 cases from 10 it's not enough to kill but you are garanteed cold meat because of GLOC. I do not speak that before you gained the position to the final pull-up you can not handle G-force so carefully w/o ACS so you can not be shure you have no GLOC before you have a chance to shoot.

 

I think what is bothering mostly is that the limiter is causing us not to be able to

pull 9g at for example 600 kts TAS sealevel. We can only do about 8g while 9g should be possible.

 

Maybe it is possible to adjust the limiter to allow a bit more for F-15?

Currently above 0.85M the limiter kicks in a little too early, sometimes 6-7G where close to 9g should be available.

I think everybody would be happy if 9G(maybe even 10g) was always available, nobody really wants to do 15 g :)

 

At least, it could be thought of as a compromise?

[Stangpilot]

I should have been more clear... :)

Now the flaps are wrong and are to be fix for those planes where it is necessary as well as F-15 at low speed.

 

Things like this are why I have supported every payed lock on follow up to date. Except for Black Shark cause I am not a helicopter guy, every payed upgrade for Lockon I have purchased. Cause its support like this that makes this the most enjoyable flight sim product I own.

 

Future DCS products that feature jet planes will definitely be on my future purchase list. I'm a customer for life.

[*Rage*]

Thx Yo-Yo ;)

[RvEFuSiOn]

You have only 3-4 s before you get blackout and GLOC. OK, imagine you gain spare 4-5 deg/s of ROT for only 3-4 s. You can win maximum 15 deg of total angle. In 9 cases from 10 it's not enough to kill but you are garanteed cold meat because of GLOC. I do not speak that before you gained the position to the final pull-up you can not handle G-force so carefully w/o ACS so you can not be shure you have no GLOC before you have a chance to shoot.

 

 

But what is wrong with this YoYo? Real Pilots have to manage their G forces, they cant pull for ever :-) All this will do is get online pilots to manage their G forces better, instead of pulling non stop at High G's. It will take more throttle management too, instead of yanking the stick back full with full afterburner.

[A.S]

 

What we just found out in a quick (not full accurate, but good enough) test with ACS failure enabled. ...i thought you might just have a few thoughts on that...

 

 

Here is (just for fun) a quick comparsion with a F-15C (PW-220) in F4AF (same conditions-Clean-GW=37000-SL).

 

The green dots show the instantanious peaks, whereas the red dots reflect the sustain cabability of the F-15C.

 

At 0.2 and 0.3 mach the dots overlap and at mach 0.8 and 0.9 again << here the 9G limit is reached, and the rate drops down again.

 

If you compare with the graph above (quote) which shows the charactestics of Lockon 2.0, you can see where the main differences are.

Consequently, this leads to the findings of the errors "somewhere".

 

SELFEXPLANATORY. EDIT: i had to update the pic below, there was a slight error, but this one is correct.

 

Edited April 7, 2010 by A.S

[A.S]

btw yo-yo, i enjoy your improvements posted in graphs along this thread and the implications what that means for me ( how to dogfight the birds ) .cool :thumbup:

[A.S]

error in pic 2 post 131 (above) fixed.

 

Furthermore i want to mention, that the real charts say, that the f-15c can sustain 14deg/s at 0.2mach (=132ktas@SL), and 16,5degs/s at 0.3mach (=198kts@SL), which is VERY optimistic.

14deg/s with 132ktas ==?? this is stall with that pull !

And it is really to question, if in that low regime even the real chart is relyable.

First of all, who in the airforce pulls that stunts ??. Morelikely the graph at that low speeds is just a guess-drawing.

The AF curves instead have a very reasonable and logic nature in that regime.

Edited April 7, 2010 by A.S

[Yo-Yo]

Don't forget the thrust vector projection on vertical axis.

[GGTharos]

The chart is not calculated. If you read the -1 you'll find that the data in these charts were taken by flying the plane.

 

error in pic 2 post 131 (above) fixed.

 

Furthermore i want to mention, that the real charts say, that the f-15c can sustain 14deg/s at 0.2mach (=132ktas@SL), and 16,5degs/s at 0.3mach (=198kts@SL), which is VERY optimistic.

14deg/s with 132ktas ==?? this is stall with that pull !

And it is really to question, if in that low regime even the real chart is relyable.

First of all, who in the airforce pulls that stunts ??. Morelikely the graph at that low speeds is just a guess-drawing.

The AF curves instead have a very reasonable and logic nature in that regime.

[A.S]

@yo-yo: no i haven´t yo-yo, and i know what you mean with it, yet its really extreme limits (14deg/sec @ 132ktas)...hard to believe, but oh well "real manual", so.....

 

@GG: i have read it and you dont have to tell me that. just try to "illuminate" my point.

But you know what is cooler? Next time you can actually consider testing and flying the planes as beta tester and suggest making it like your beloved REAL MANUALs :smilewink:.

On paper things seem not always to be as a "pilots" input or feedback as we have seen.

Edited April 7, 2010 by A.S

[RvEFuSiOn]

Flying the plane at 132ktas@SL? Which test pilot will do that?

[A.S]

yupp, and other question, at what speed is then the critical stall moment including bank which leads to departure in that real manual. You get my

point?

 

Whatsoever, that should end up in a minimum radius turn....like that one

 

 

or this one (he finishes a full turn in 27seconds = 13.33deg/sec) ..but i cant really tell if that is around 134ktas in that vid (i dont know his grossweight either) ...but it looks way way faster then landing speed for me. opinions welcome. but on the other hand, you never know what youtube uploaders understand as "minimun radius turns"....so

 

Edited April 7, 2010 by A.S

[Stangpilot]

So with this and other threads talking about known issues with flap performance and that it is being worked on, when will there be an actual update?? I know asking for a specific date is impossible, but is it weeks, months away???

[Robin_Hood]

Should be in the first FC2 patch. I have no idea how far away the release would be, though.

 

I'm really looking forward the corrections. But what I'm even more looking forward, is Yo-Yo's turn performance diagrams for all airplanes :)

[LawnDart]

but i cant really tell if that is around 134ktas in that vid (i dont know his grossweight either) ...but it looks way way faster then landing speed for me. opinions welcome.

 

That looks like an F-15C TAC demo... if so, he'd be roughly at 380-400 KCAS entering the turn.

[IvanK]

In this thread there is mention of a generic in game AFCS G and AOA Limiter.

How does this work ?

 

At what Mach number does it become active ?

What G and AOA limits does it impose ?

Is it applicable to all aircraft ?

[borchi_2b]

F15 combat flaps bug

 

hi defs

 

i figured something real strange.

 

when you are in a turnfight, at the edge of any battle, then there is a bug in the f15c in fc2.o.

 

when you activate the flaps, the eagle increases speed instead of loosing speed. this is by far not possible at any circumstances of aerodynamics.

 

i pulled the stick at the same level all the time. extended flaps during my 90° turns and gained speed from 200knt nearly up to 300knt.

when i pull in the flaps, i loose speed again and end up at 200knt.

 

here needs to mentioned that the stick is pulled all time the same level.

 

you can test it if you want.

 

but this is defenatly abug in this game, which must be fixed.

 

when i pull the stick all the way to the back, i even turn tighter with flaps, then any real a10c can ever do.

 

this is in some way a nice bug, but not realitic at all. please take that topic into any account when you think about fixing anything for fc2.o.

 

this is something that needs to be fixed for sure.

 

the thrust to weight ratio of the new engines is good, and also is modelled right so far.

 

what i am surprised is, that the trust to weight ratio of the russian birds is not modelled correct in my opinion.

 

but i think there need to be made test by your testerteam.

 

or we make some tracks we can show what we mean

 

we do not care

 

cheers

borchi_2b

[GGTharos]

TWR of Russian birds is correct.

 

And ... read the thread before posting in it.

[borchi_2b]

sorry.

 

ok, so well then i am surprised that i do not get any speed out of the russian birds at full burner and unloading the wings. hmm, strange, then i guess the twr of the su27 is not 1:1.47 ?

i tested it with minimum fuel, and guess what, there is not verticaql accaleration possible, so kind of strange isn´t it?

 

with the f15c it is possible, so, just a little expelation to that would be great

 

the f15 has a max twr with the ´220 of 1:1,68

 

lets assume the ´200 has a little bit les, but still it accelerates during climb, like it does in fc2.o

 

but trya that with the russian birds, LOL, there is no way they can be right, sorry, but i am not convinced at all.

 

we did our testings in our squad.

 

by the way, how to read out ingame data with lua?

like yoda mentioned? is there anybody who could explain it?

[GGTharos]

Don't worry, the f-115's low mach thrust will get cut down to what it's supposed to be, then you won't see that difference.

 

As for the TWRs you calculated ... TWR of empty planes? Really? And at what mach number?

 

sorry.

 

ok, so well then i am surprised that i do not get any speed out of the russian birds at full burner and unloading the wings. hmm, strange, then i guess the twr of the su27 is not 1:1.47 ?

i tested it with minimum fuel, and guess what, there is not verticaql accaleration possible, so kind of strange isn´t it?

 

with the f15c it is possible, so, just a little expelation to that would be great

 

the f15 has a max twr with the ´220 of 1:1,68

 

lets assume the ´200 has a little bit les, but still it accelerates during climb, like it does in fc2.o

 

but trya that with the russian birds, LOL, there is no way they can be right, sorry, but i am not convinced at all.

 

we did our testings in our squad.

 

by the way, how to read out ingame data with lua?

like yoda mentioned? is there anybody who could explain it?

Edited April 22, 2010 by GGTharos

[borchi_2b]

well i just posted the empty twr = max, but now put only 1,5tons to the weight an do the math again. it will not change that much though

[GGTharos]

It will be different for every mach number you hit.

-220 thrust at mach 0 is about 38000lbf for both engines together.

 

well i just posted the empty twr = max, but now put only 1,5tons to the weight an do the math again. it will not change that much though

[Rhino104]

yupp, and other question, at what speed is then the critical stall moment including bank which leads to departure in that real manual. You get my

point?

 

Whatsoever, that should end up in a minimum radius turn....like that one

 

 

or this one (he finishes a full turn in 27seconds = 13.33deg/sec) ..but i cant really tell if that is around 134ktas in that vid (i dont know his grossweight either) ...but it looks way way faster then landing speed for me. opinions welcome. but on the other hand, you never know what youtube uploaders understand as "minimun radius turns"....so

 

 

The first one is of an Eagle demo team pre-2009. I can guarantee (because I talked to a demo pilot about it) that they do not pull as hard as they can in that turn. Thats probably about 5-6 g's.

 

The 2nd video isn't even a C model, its an E model.

[Robin_Hood]

About flaps. Yes it will, probably in the first official patch ;)