So ED Covered their bases...

[GGTharos]

I don't see why not. The 'Nuclear Release Authorized' indicator in the F-15E is big and red, too. For real :D

[Geskes]

No, I'm having YOUR stuff, that I'll take from YOUR base ... with my tank.

 

I find it amusing that people think these things - and SAMs - are just sitting ducks. Mobile warfare employed properly will see your mavericks and LGBs miss, and will render JDAMs less useful.

 

A SAM operator isn't going to be sitting around with his radar blasting away at you, waiting to eat a HARM. He'll be watching his datalink that is fed from an EWR or a larger SAM, wait until you are FIRMLY inside the NEZ, and THEN he'll push the 'automatically turn on radar and cue and keep shooting this target 'till it's dead' button.

 

Thats all very nice but then I can say proper EW use and your sam crews cant even talk to eachother and will hear christmas tunes trough their headsets. You are now talking real world but we are considering a sim world. They would have to go a very long way to have an entire operating air defense network where players can man different stations with decoys and all kinds of other bells and whistles.

 

I don't think anyone thinks SAMs or other ground forces in a proper operation are just sitting ducks. If there would be a DCS M1 like someone suggested in this sim world he is a sitting duck. I am not saying it wouldn't be interesting or that you couldn't make fun scenarios with it but in a MP scenario with airplanes, those will have a dominant role. This is also true for a DCS SA-9 even if they have fancy gadgets, after he turns on his radar for the first time his position is known and everyone is coming for him.

 

Look at DCS BS and FC2 compatibility, its evident there already, if you go fly on a server in your BS you will not even notice anything and then suddenly you are a goner. Driving around in an M1 would give the same idea.

[Succellus]

don tknow what happened DP.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Succellus

[GGTharos]

I'll still have your stuff with my tank ;)

[Succellus]

No, I'm having YOUR stuff, that I'll take from YOUR base ... with my tank.

 

I find it amusing that people think these things - and SAMs - are just sitting ducks. Mobile warfare employed properly will see your mavericks and LGBs miss, and will render JDAMs less useful.

 

A SAM operator isn't going to be sitting around with his radar blasting away at you, waiting to eat a HARM. He'll be watching his datalink that is fed from an EWR or a larger SAM, wait until you are FIRMLY inside the NEZ, and THEN he'll push the 'automatically turn on radar and cue and keep shooting this target 'till it's dead' button.

 

 

No, I'm having YOUR stuff, that I'll take from YOUR base ... with my tank.

 

I find it amusing that people think these things - and SAMs - are just sitting ducks. Mobile warfare employed properly will see your mavericks and LGBs miss, and will render JDAMs less useful.

 

A SAM operator isn't going to be sitting around with his radar blasting away at you, waiting to eat a HARM. He'll be watching his datalink that is fed from an EWR or a larger SAM, wait until you are FIRMLY inside the NEZ, and THEN he'll push the 'automatically turn on radar and cue and keep shooting this target 'till it's dead' button.

 

Well, will such make it in the sim ? Albeit from gauntlet tactic, and not even that in FC2 i see sitting ducks everywhere as long as your cautious, which i m not, and even then survive most of the time. The only sim i can remember waiting to DLZ then lighting up and shooting is F4. And even then they would not move.

I heard some rumours that they move on A10 and was the first to cheer it up if true.

But if you want to talk real.:music_whistling:

You may reach my base perimeter if you survive the planes, the heli, the motorised ground units, the lone guy whith his AT military or homemade, the resistance explosive filled road, and when you get near my base you wil have to stand still waiting for de-miners, at the same time waiting for a heli, a plane, an artillery strike or the lone guy with his AT military or homemade to take his pot shot, be you SAM or tank.

No wonder why USA tanks shoot even on camera mens on "safe" directions, no wonder convoy keep shooting at road edge when moving, those guys are always on the edge with good reasons.

 

I wasnt talking about SAM anyway but about tanks, most don t have datalink and don t have much idea of whats happening, and unless he enter a subterranean parking lot with enought to pay for the parking time:clown:, nowhere to flee. Smoke pop is as good as wind wants. Some have chaff and flares so far much less effective than planes ones.

 

And considering all in a war, planes VS tank - sam ratio loss, Statistic shows that the pilot is the one saying:

Can i have your stuff before you roast ?:D

Tank crew dont have ejecting seats, which dont help either :D

[leafer]

Thanks, Grimes. Was hoping for a sound conspiracy theory and that's good enough for me. :D That's a fine looking list, too.

 

To the ones that think not even ED has a clue as to what will come after DCS: A-10C. Welcome to the forums, you must be new. :D My guess is they probably have an idea of what they would like to do for the fourth and fifth modules, and I'm positive they've been working on the third module in parallel with the A-10C.

 

ED aren't tight lipped by choice and were forced to for good reason since post Flanker 2 days. I'm sure they, as with any pround parents, would love to let us in on features and flyables. But back when they would throw us juicy info, a lot of people would hold them accountable to their words. If an announced feature happenns to be some grognards' fetish and said feature does not make it to release, they are hounded to no end. Nasty stuff.

[Succellus]

Agreee leafer, the only certainty i have its the quality delivered by ED team, and thats enought, even if its an Super Etandard simulator. (J/K on the Super Etandard !!! don t even think of it!!!)

[Dimebag1]

Maybe the next dcs module will be leaked on wikileaks, someone's gotta hack into the USAF and snoop around in there.

[FlandersRevenge]

Hahaha. "USAF pays RUSSIAN company X million dollars for training tools for classified UCAV"

[DiabloSP]

Tanks are sitting ducks in the current implementation in the sim. But I talked about the need of a ground AI and ground units rework. As it stands now, a tank sim would not work. A lot of work needs to be done previously.

 

IF that rework is done, player controlled tanks would not be sitting ducks. As GG said, a proper radar network would bring EW to all datalinked vehicles in the net. Even if not datalinked, radio comms would alert the ground crews of nearby enemy planes. You can't even count on firing HARMs or MAVs at will because of enemy CAPs (yes, in an open war you are not alone in the sky burning tanks). If you fly high, EWR will track you. If you fly low, MANPADS will get you as soon as you overfly any kind of enemy concentration. In a case of 50/50 air superiority, being in a Hog is not as easy as you seem to think.

 

Mobility and the cover of woods, buildings, and self defence AA units, do the rest.

 

And when I talked about "MBT sim", I was thinking more in a "Platoon sim", or even multi-platoon sim, something close to Microprose's M1 Tank Platoon, where you could drive 4 tanks and take control of various support platoons. Those were great sims in their time, very challenging and fun. You did not need to drive 2 hours to get anywhere, you took control when forces where in close proximity. Every sim needs proper distancing between forces when designing missions. A-10 can be 300km apart, KA-50 can be 100Km apart, and tanks can be 15Km apart.

 

But, of all the ideas posted, the one I like most was the possibility of integrating truly realistic ground war in what already is a truly realistic air war scenario. It's very very important in two sims that simulate some of the most effective tank killers of our time.

[Mirtma]

Tanks are sitting ducks in the current implementation in the sim. But I talked about the need of a ground AI and ground units rework. As it stands now, a tank sim would not work. A lot of work needs to be done previously.

 

IF that rework is done, player controlled tanks would not be sitting ducks. As GG said, a proper radar network would bring EW to all datalinked vehicles in the net. Even if not datalinked, radio comms would alert the ground crews of nearby enemy planes. You can't even count on firing HARMs or MAVs at will because of enemy CAPs (yes, in an open war you are not alone in the sky burning tanks). If you fly high, EWR will track you. If you fly low, MANPADS will get you as soon as you overfly any kind of enemy concentration. In a case of 50/50 air superiority, being in a Hog is not as easy as you seem to think.

 

 

+1

[Dimebag1]

Yeah, think Dcs battlefield 2, that would be a dream. I think it's possible, but in today's gaming market definately not probable. For it to happen I think we would need multiple dev's working in unison on separate realms like sea, air and ground, but using the same engine, and smart dev tools that are specific for each realm but allow them to intermesh flawlessly. One can dream.

[DiabloSP]

There's no need to dream that far. You don't need a "Battlefield 2" experience, this is DCS not BF.

 

The (very vague) "general-idea" need is isolating the AI and Vehicle Control Command subsystems so they can be executed by players or AI, and then having an AI that is good enough to behave in a realistic fashion. Easy to say, very hard to accomplish.

[Dimebag1]

There's no need to dream that far. You don't need a "Battlefield 2" experience, this is DCS not BF.

 

The (very vague) "general-idea" need is isolating the AI and Vehicle Control Command subsystems so they can be executed by players or AI, and then having an AI that is good enough to behave in a realistic fashion. Easy to say, very hard to accomplish.

 

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying I wanted dcs to become like battlefield 2, infested with swearing teenagers with insanely good mouse coordination. What I meant was that battlefield 2 encompassed infantry, tanks, aircraft and helicopters and integrated it into a single game. It probably wasn't the first to do this but it sure made it popular. What I would love to see is dcs fidelity complexity and modelling of systems and handling characteristics integrated with ground troops in an AA (america's army) type of realism, tanks, carriers, airbases, choppers, jets, military tactician and commanders, all integrated in the one system. Basically DCS allout war. So your flying your dcs warthog in some realistic war scenario and get a call from you real life jtac who can then lase an enemy tank or something and job done. You can't tell me that wouldn't be cool. (oh, it would have to be 18 yrs + to keep out the annoying swearing kids.

[openfalcon68]

This is nice....Thanks

 

M.

 

There is a SAM Simulator floating around for a while. And yes, I hope that naval a ground war will be on DCS series some day.

[Succellus]

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying I wanted dcs to become like battlefield 2, infested with swearing teenagers with insanely good mouse coordination. What I meant was that battlefield 2 encompassed infantry, tanks, aircraft and helicopters and integrated it into a single game. It probably wasn't the first to do this but it sure made it popular. What I would love to see is dcs fidelity complexity and modelling of systems and handling characteristics integrated with ground troops in an AA (america's army) type of realism, tanks, carriers, airbases, choppers, jets, military tactician and commanders, all integrated in the one system. Basically DCS allout war. So your flying your dcs warthog in some realistic war scenario and get a call from you real life jtac who can then lase an enemy tank or something and job done. You can't tell me that wouldn't be cool. (oh, it would have to be 18 yrs + to keep out the annoying swearing kids.

 

This is a long dream for all war fans.

The problem is not only kids that swear, there s the lone wolf sindrom, the lack of discipline that risk the integrity of any operation.

IN BF or AA (but less than BF)its very hard to see people acting like real squads maintaining obj assigned by leader.

I agree in a DCS setup people would be less prone to this cause the learning curve of DCS alone would be a firewall against any non dedicated gamer. But you still would have to coop with the rest.

Usually A10 and the like only enter in sky safe ops, or real unsustainable situation for ground troops, no ned to waste millions.

You will also need a lot of AI to compensate for eventual lack of people. And since AI eat a lot of processing power...no way... yet.

I would be happy now with AI moving/scattering when perceiving they will be attacked or attacking, trying to get cover, using smoke, chaff flares, Man pads getting out of troop truck and the like.

Ai calling air reinforcement so you have a determined time to get out or be busted by a fighter launching BVR.

An integrated battlefied also bring another question... respawn like BF, or die wait like AAO ? This is no soldier running around but people doing full startup probably planning etc. How much would wait half an hour so the misison end in draw/lose/win ? No way to get this on 10mn like AAO.

[RIZLAHQ]

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying I wanted dcs to become like battlefield 2, infested with swearing teenagers with insanely good mouse coordination. What I meant was that battlefield 2 encompassed infantry, tanks, aircraft and helicopters and integrated it into a single game. It probably wasn't the first to do this but it sure made it popular. What I would love to see is dcs fidelity complexity and modelling of systems and handling characteristics integrated with ground troops in an AA (america's army) type of realism, tanks, carriers, airbases, choppers, jets, military tactician and commanders, all integrated in the one system. Basically DCS allout war. So your flying your dcs warthog in some realistic war scenario and get a call from you real life jtac who can then lase an enemy tank or something and job done. You can't tell me that wouldn't be cool. (oh, it would have to be 18 yrs + to keep out the annoying swearing kids.

 

+1 have Bohemia Interactive join forces with ED, Maybe with the arma engine running other forces and have the all flights crossed over with arma, Can't be to hard to do. And speaking of online play is there any word about servers hope there's gotta be proper support for servers, Hated trying to host games with Lomac, Port forwarding BS

[GGTharos]

Ok, do it.

 

Can't be to hard to do.

[Succellus]

Ok, do it.

 

:D My thought exactly :lol:

[element1108]

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying I wanted dcs to become like battlefield 2, infested with swearing teenagers with insanely good mouse coordination. What I meant was that battlefield 2 encompassed infantry, tanks, aircraft and helicopters and integrated it into a single game. It probably wasn't the first to do this but it sure made it popular. What I would love to see is dcs fidelity complexity and modelling of systems and handling characteristics integrated with ground troops in an AA (america's army) type of realism, tanks, carriers, airbases, choppers, jets, military tactician and commanders, all integrated in the one system. Basically DCS allout war. So your flying your dcs warthog in some realistic war scenario and get a call from you real life jtac who can then lase an enemy tank or something and job done. You can't tell me that wouldn't be cool. (oh, it would have to be 18 yrs + to keep out the annoying swearing kids.

 

 

This would be the coolest thing ever, it has been discussed to death in here though. It's every hardcore simmers dream, very unlikely to happen though...not for a commercial market anyway. Perhaps one day I'll eat these words.

[Geskes]

Now its going datalinks and EW again. Datalinks dont work dudes, you cant rely on it, especially since you say we need EW for ground vehicles. They might have them but if the OPFOR has equal EW capability he can jam the shit out it and if the army is relying on datalink they are toast. The only datalink that is going to work is the optical datalink between the tanks in a platoon for example. This has happened time and time again in real life exercises where they experiment with these technologies. To jam these networks requires less technology then to be able to operate such a network. All you have to do is blast an area with the same waves the datalink is operating in. Granted, its suicide for the jammer because he will light up like a christmas tree but EW units have tactics too and dont behave like sitting ducks, they move and then they jam and then they move. In fact, they can even move while jamming but it is dangerous for interference with friendly networks. Besides that, if you get too close to one you get fried like you would in a microwave :). BTW, EMP does wonders to a datalink network or any force too reliant on fancy electronics too.

 

You cant just say oh, we give the tanks some EW and then they can survive against airplanes. What about area effect weapons? If they know you can jam their mavericks do you think they would even try firing them? Some seem to think that every military weapon has some kind of trick to stay away from getting killed. Thats simply not true. The reality is that a lot of people die and a lot of material gets destroyed. I see someone says, yes you get a warning of incoming planes. Oh thats nice, but WTF are you going to do about it? Pull a logoffski? You can't just bury yourself in your tank. It doesnt matter if you move at all, they can perfectly hit moving tanks. You are a sitting duck to an airplane regardless of what you do. Thats the difference with your average airplane, it has the ability to run away. (maybe not so much for the A-10 :D). It is mobile! It is fast! Besides that in any scenario you would know already that the planes were coming. So who cares about a warning. Thats like calling a "contact front" in WWI.

 

The reality is just that airpower is very powerful and you can say whatever you want but its not going to change. The force ratio's it would require to have DCS: TOTAL WAR would make DCS an Army sim with a very small amount dedicated to airplanes. I don't want that to happen. Those of you with army experience know that most army operations are boring as hell. You are only a small part of the picture so usually you are just watching something. For a very long time. While nothing happens. Then the planes come. And you have fun for 2 minutes. Then it starts all over again. There is nothing glorious about it. In our DCS airplanes we are always busy managing the aircraft, and trying to fly as best as we can. For army vehicles it just doenst work that way, especially not since we are in a simulated environment, how can I perfect my gun reloading while there is no actual gun to reload? A pilot is sitting stationary for the entire flight and handles the complete aircraft so it is very suitable for simulation. This is not true for any offense ground vehicle I know off (with 1 guy as driver, gunner, loader). It's boring and it doesnt take much braincells. Look at the difference in requirements between a fighter pilot and a tank gunner. See the difference? Now why would that be? Believe it would get old pretty fast and you would run back to you aircraft with your tail between your legs. I just want to fly airplanes, thats my thing PLANES! Fast jets with big bombs that can go everywhere they want to blow stuff up.

 

So please keep making airplanes for the next 10 years. Then we might be able to talk about a DCS ground war.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Geskes

[Miro]

My thinking is simple but good - When i want to be simple soldier - starting ARMA 2, when want to fly - starting DCS BS/Warhog:thumbup:

 

Try eject in DCS and walk from one village to another...

[104th_Crunch]

Lol at some of these comments. Total War my arse. Aircraft please. Who else is making them like ED? No one. Not that it wouldn't be nice to have all types of playable units, but with DCS quality would take an army in itself to develop. Market is tuff as it is. Lots of aircraft that fans want, we only got 2!

[Grimes]

I think if someone posted their personal shopping list it would somehow mutate into a DCS Wishlist thread.

Ya'll have an uncanny ability.

:D

[leafer]

Has anyone tried the SAM simulator?