The beginners learning thread

[StrongHarm]

Actually, I posted the poll .. it reads "I read the manual all the way through":

 

I read the manual all the way through 29.27%

I read what I had to.. I plan to read the rest one day 36.86%

I read what I had to.. the rest is a reference only if I get lost 26.56%

Hate manuals. I'll learn as I go. 7.32%

 

It's not my intention to distort things, the sad truth is that people just aren't reading the manual. They'd rather have someone teach them.. which is the topic at hand. It's obvious in these forums.

 

As for the "government distorting things" I would argue that the media is the guilty party in distorting facts. If by "government" you mean politicians, they create their own facts.. or truth. If by "government" you mean the military establishment, their distorting the truth is just to appease the empathetic idiot masses enough to shut them up so they can go on with protecting their non contributing butts.

 

Like the media it seems that you've attempted to discredit me because the facts make you uncomfortable.

 

Have a nice day MSNBC.. err.. 26-J39.

 

Oh please, do you work for the government? Distorting things..

- 29 % have read the WHOLE manual before first flight.

 

- 7% hate reading manuals.

 

- Therefore 93% actually read/refer the manual.

[vegachavez]

Talking about manuals, has anyone printed it out? I`m thinking of printing it if I can do it under 5 hours and 100 bucks later!

Seriously has any one really printed it..I like to hear some details.

[kylania]

Printing it at Staples would have cost me $300-400. I just printed out (and laminated!) key parts like the button tables around page 80, some checklists, the Flight Procedures section, HOTAS maps and the like.

[vegachavez]

I somehow new you would have an answer.

This sim is going to wreck my personal life and eye sight for good measure.

[dnme]

RTFM ?

 

The manual authoring remains DCS's Achilles heel. The manual jumps about a lot, skimps over some bits and is verbose with other bits. It has no real start - middle or end. It's a mess just like the manuals in FC and LOMAC.

 

I happen to think that the flight sims are the best ever. FC2 and now a-10c are stunning, simply stunning. Nothing compares to them. However they are let down by awful manuals which is such a shame.

[dnme]

OK another update (sorry to keep replying to my own posts).

 

I have managed to get ILS working properly at least at one airport. If I am correct, ILS relies on a radio beacon does it not? So therefore you would need radio working, no?

 

In my manual, it told me that the "\" key brought up radio menu. It never worked for me and just made me frustrated. Then I found a video from LongLegsLynch's youtube channel which mentioned that the radio menu key is "#" on UK keyboards. That worked for me, I finally got the radio comms menu up for the first time. This in turn enabled me to request landing permission as I approached an airport, then as if by magic the ILS crosshairs appear and work, I can fly em manually or put the aircraft in path hold an it flies the approach automatically. So far this has taken me 4 days to figure out !!

 

(dam crap manual)

 

Are the above related? does this make sense?

[StrongHarm]

You can print booklet style using this method. I only printed portions, but this still saved me a lot of time and ink.

 

Talking about manuals, has anyone printed it out? I`m thinking of printing it if I can do it under 5 hours and 100 bucks later!

Seriously has any one really printed it..I like to hear some details.

[Frederf]

I wouldn't print the beta manual. There's just going to be a better one. One could buy an iPad for the cost of 2-3 paper copies :P

[StrongHarm]

(dam crap manual)

 

With respect, dnme, it sounds to me like you're trying to take a lot of shortcuts. I saw previous posts from you concerning quick start manuals and videos. If you're having a hard time with the basics of flight I would suggest that you're in no position to take shortcuts. The manual is good if you surrender to it and read it all the way through. I've personally read it more than once and find it interesting and more than adequate. I do believe it will be even better once it's no longer in beta draft though.

[dnme]

With respect, dnme, it sounds to me like you're trying to take a lot of shortcuts. I saw previous posts from you concerning quick start manuals and videos. If you're having a hard time with the basics of flight I would suggest that you're in no position to take shortcuts. The manual is good if you surrender to it and read it all the way through. I've personally read it more than once and find it interesting and more than adequate. I do believe it will be even better once it's no longer in beta draft though.

 

With respect StrongHarm - Any manual is good and within your comfort zone if you already have knowledge. DCS manuals are awful. I remember trying to deal with the LOMAC manual a few years ago and found it to be inadequate.

 

Lets take a simple example. Here's a question - "How to I land via ILS in the a-10a in FC2" ?

 

Now that's a pretty well defined question, right? So lets approach the FC2 manual and read the US Aircraft section on the a-10a over (again), Then read the entire Flight Training section (again). You will notice that the section on ILS turns out to be just a small paragraph. No specifics, no mention of pre-requisites, no mention of setup etc. After all that reading, my question remains unanswered.

 

This is just one example of many I have. The difference between you and me is that you have knowledge, experience and good networking in a strong community. I am new, a beginner, a fresh learner and have no knowledge.

 

Therefore the manual is critical to me and the likes of me. And it's me and the likes of me that the manual let's down so so badly.

[26-J39]

It's not my intention to distort things, the sad truth is that people just aren't reading the manual. They'd rather have someone teach them.. which is the topic at hand. It's obvious in these forums.

 

Fair enough, I know there are the few like this but the majority are very aware the manual is a source of knowledge and do use it... Some times there are people who don't comprehend the manual as u take for granted ( no dig intended, u know what i mean), so a bit of "tolerance" is appreciated by all..

 

As for the "government distorting things" I would argue that the media is the guilty party in distorting facts. If by "government" you mean politicians, they create their own facts.. or truth. If by "government" you mean the military establishment, their distorting the truth is just to appease the empathetic idiot masses enough to shut them up so they can go on with protecting their non contributing butts.

 

Was joking.. but yer each to there own.

 

Have a nice day MSNBC.. err.. 26-J39.

 

Always do.. Cheers :smilewink:

[Bucic]

Fair enough, I know there are the few like this but the majority are very aware the manual is a source of knowledge and do use it... Some times there are people who don't comprehend the manual as u take for granted ( no dig intended, u know what i mean), so a bit of "tolerance" is appreciated by all..

In most RTFM cases newbie's questions directly indicate a failure to use even pdf reader search function. :disgust:

[Frederf]

You'll find the real aircraft manuals aren't too much more detailed. The manuals are systems descriptions, performance charts, and cautionary notes.

 

What you really want is 52 weeks of IFT course work and syllabi. There really isn't a real life counter-part to the detailed tutorials that spring up around DCS:A-10C. By the time a real life pilot is landing the A-10 he has done many many landings in the Texan II and T-38. He knows basic aerodynamics. He knows what it means to be ahead or behind the power curve. He knows how radio navigational aids work. All he needs for the A-10 are specifics about the jet to apply what he knows to a slightly different airplane and learn 10% brand new stuff.

 

Landing with ILS navigation in the A-10C for example is a subject built upon a knowledge of visual landing practices with attention to the ILS instrumentation mechanization. You don't learn both at the same time. I would suggest becomming proficient at visual landings and level TACAN navigation before attempting ILS landings. Study the NMSP, ADI, and HSI and ILS radio panels in exhaustive detail. What's the CRS knob do? What does it mean to have a window on the HSI flagged red? Why is having both TACAN and ILS NMSP buttons pressed different than just ILS?

[26-J39]

In most RTFM cases newbie's questions directly indicate a failure to use even pdf reader search function. :disgust:

Hey look i agree, I'm just saying not "every 'noob' question" needs to be treated with "RTFM".. ;)

[Dimebag1]

I remember in fc1.12 in the a-10 campaign, after completing the mission and following the waypoints back to base, once you reach the last waypoint (which is usually a few km down the takeoff side of the runway) you then get the first ils waypoint, which takes you over the runway and out to sea for about 5-10km, and following the heading you then intercept the final waypoint, which then gets you to pull a 180, once you are fairly lined up with the runway the ils bars then appear on the HUD, and you get the call from the tower to either climb or descend to follow the glideslope. What you say about using the comms menu's will get you to the ils marker, he will tell you to follow a certain heading for a certain distance, but I never rely on this because sometimes he just sends you in circles. Bottom line is if you follow the waypoints correctly all the way back to final, you will get ils indication, atleast in fc1.12. You shouldn't need to request heading to runway from the tower. Try a plain mission if you can manage to survive it and you will see this.

[openfalcon68]

I meant someone from the community. An adaption of the real world training on below mentioned lines would be great.

 

http://seawolves.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=176

 

Manish

 

I'd love to see a realistic training syllabus as well, but I don't think it would be worth EDs time to produce. There are too many people that won't read the existing manual that is simple and well written. Go to a multiplayer server and you should only have to wait for a few minutes to see "what's the key for the landing gear", or just look at these forums: "how do I drop a bomb".

 

I can tell you that the real manuals and training plans are written by engineers, not teachers. I'd say an extended training plan would have maybe a 5% audience. According to this poll, only 29% actually read the current manual.

[dnme]

I remember in fc1.12 in the a-10 campaign, after completing the mission and following the waypoints back to base, once you reach the last waypoint (which is usually a few km down the takeoff side of the runway) you then get the first ils waypoint, which takes you over the runway and out to sea for about 5-10km, and following the heading you then intercept the final waypoint, which then gets you to pull a 180, once you are fairly lined up with the runway the ils bars then appear on the HUD, and you get the call from the tower to either climb or descend to follow the glideslope. What you say about using the comms menu's will get you to the ils marker, he will tell you to follow a certain heading for a certain distance, but I never rely on this because sometimes he just sends you in circles. Bottom line is if you follow the waypoints correctly all the way back to final, you will get ils indication, atleast in fc1.12. You shouldn't need to request heading to runway from the tower. Try a plain mission if you can manage to survive it and you will see this.

 

Dimebag1

I have tried that (creating simple missions just for nav practice). I find that when I reach the final approach waypoint, the aircraft seems to head off in some crazy direction (makes no sense). When I manually line up the aricraft with the runway, I enter ILS mode but I get no ILS bars on the HUD.

 

Does ILS work for both ends of a runway?

Does ILS work at all airports in the sim?

[Bucic]

Hey look i agree, I'm just saying not "every 'noob' question" needs to be treated with "RTFM".. ;)

The 'kind RTFM' then ;) http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b68/Bucic/DCSforum/Instr/kindrtfm_bucic.jpg

[Dimebag1]

Does ILS work for both ends of a runway?

Does ILS work at all airports in the sim?

 

Answer 1: no, ils only works from the end of the runway at which you are supposed to approach from. Typically you approach in the same direction that you took off from, so if you take off to the north, you must approach from the southern end. If you don't approach from the correct end you will not get any ils bars. Like I said, there is usually 2 ils waypoints, the first which sends you back behind the runway to line you up for approach, and the second which will display the ils bars once you get there.

 

Answer 2: as far as I know ils is at all airports.

[pyates2104]

Dimebag1

I have tried that (creating simple missions just for nav practice). I find that when I reach the final approach waypoint, the aircraft seems to head off in some crazy direction (makes no sense).

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "heads of in a crazy direction"... I think what you are assuming is that if the ADI bar is in the middle, you must be heading in the right direction, this is not correct. You must be heading in the runway direction, you then make small adjustments to keep the localizer bar in the middle. The other thing to consider is that you must have the correct course set in the HSI, this should be set to runway heading.

 

 

 

 

If you read the ILS navigation section of the manual it will give you more information. Basically you need to draw a virtual diagram in your head.

1. Runway heading
   
2. Heading you approached the ILS/TACAN beacon or initial point from.
   
3. Heading you need to fly "downwind" in order to setup for the IP
   
4. Heading you have to turn to in order to intercept the localizer
   

You really really should do some study on ILS approaches, there's plenty of information out there and you'll better understand what people are saying in the forum. A start would be learning to read an ILS Instrument approach chart like this one:

 

It looks complicated but actually it isn't. In DCS you don't even have to fly a proper procedure, you just have to know what to do when you near the approach point ATC vector you to. Basically you then turn to runway heading and use the bars in the ADI to keep on track.

 

 

Dimebag1

When I manually line up the aricraft with the runway, I enter ILS mode but I get no ILS bars on the HUD. ?

I don't think the A10C has ils bars in the HUD, you need to look at the ADI. (A10A in FC2 was a simplification)

Dimebag1

Does ILS work for both ends of a runway?

No, you need a different frequency for each runway (the same runway in different directions is a different runway)

Dimebag1

Does ILS work at all airports in the sim?

I don't think so, again if you go to map view (F10) and click on an airport, it gives you nav aid information. I'm sure someone will but in and tell you which Airports have ILS and what their frequency is.

Edited November 23, 2010 by pyates2104

[dnme]

Answer 1: no, ils only works from the end of the runway at which you are supposed to approach from.

 

See now there's a useful bit of information that would have been most useful if included in the manual. Many thanks mate.

 

When you are creating a mission, how do you know which end of a runway to fly from when laying waypoints ? What I'm getting at is - how do I know which end of the runway has the ILS beacon when planning my final approach in the editor?

 

Also, if runways only transmit ILS from one end, what about the theory that you should always take off and land into the wind.What happens then when the wind is blowing the wrong way? Do pilots sacrifice ILS in order to get a head wind?

Edited November 23, 2010 by dnme

[dnme]

The 'kind RTFM' then ;) http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b68/Bucic/DCSforum/Instr/kindrtfm_bucic.jpg

 

ED Manuals are weak! in fact I would call them awful. They are very sparse on some points and over verbose on others. No beginning, middle or end. No flow and no usability.

 

I am a new user, I am also new(ish) to flight sims. I have read the portions of the manual that I reckon are appropriate to what I need to achieve, and then read them again. If you look at some of my other posts you will see many examples of where I came unstuck.

 

Manuals are so important. They need to be written from a "Usability" perspective. If you're not familiar with usability, it's a whole area of computing (HCI). The manual leaves out so much, has many mistakes and has no flow.

 

Here's what I have done. I have put the a-10c on the back burner, I then invested in Lomac/FC2 to give myself an easier learning curve. But again I came unstuck with the poor manual included with FC2. So please don't give me RTFM, not in this case!

 

I wish they would rewrite their manual from the ground up. I wish they would give it to a third party to do. I would start off with these questions

 

1. Who is gonna read this manual?

2. How are they going to read it?

3. What do different users want to achieve? / How quickly do they want to achieve it?

4. Think Use Case

5. Design the manual with the assumption that the user has zero knowledge of anything.

 

I realise that ED's sims are niche market and that funding is tight. And I truly believe that their sims are simply stunning - THE BEST! by far. But the manuals are truly dam awful. I know you'll mostly disagree, that's because you all have some or indeed lots of existing knowledge.

 

It's only when you have to rely on them as a total newbie that you begin to realise their shortcomings.

[galagamo]

It's only when you have to rely on them as a total newbie that you begin to realise their shortcomings.

Boy are you in the wrong genre, I remember being a complete noob mind you I'm still a noob, just not as complete.

I remember being frustrated, and disgusted about having to ingest all that knowledge, but not knowing where to start, so I feel your pain.

And the manuals aren't that bad, the information is in there.

Otherwise why would everyone be wearing out the R T F M keys on they're keyboards?

All we can do is post what we know, and alot of what we know came from R'ingTFM.

C'mon man, What? you want to get jacked up like the matrix? Not so easy I'm afraid.

Edited November 23, 2010 by galagamo

[dnme]

Yea fair point. I'm just frustrated after three days of trying to understand a simple concept where the manual let me down yet again. Not loosing sleep though

[galagamo]

I'm just frustrated after three days of trying to understand a simple concept where the manual let me down yet again. Not loosing sleep though

I also know that where the manuals fail, the forums may help.

So while most of the info 'IS' within the manuals, one may not find it palatable. So different formats can be of immense help.

Don't loose any sleep, but please don't give up.

One day it will click, your moment's of euphoric clarity will come.