Horrible Training

[feldwebel]

The training in this game is horrible. Not only does the instructor sound like he is reading the instructions off of a piece of paper in a mono-tone voice, he uses wayyyy too many acronyms and never explains stuff fully. I just tried the navigation tutorial, and all it told me was that I needed to start switching frequencies around. The manual is probably the only effective training tool aside from having someone walk you through.

[636_Castle]

So...you're upset because the training does not replace the Flight Manual?

[kylania]

Make sure you're using the Updated Training Missions and not the ones included with Beta 3. Also make sure you have an adult nearby to explain the big words to you. :pilotfly:

[chokko]

its a bit unrealistic to expect 600+pages of manual to be crammed into a few training missions with voice (not to mention the game isnt even finished). You'd have to take lots of notes to remember it all, which means you may as well read the manual a little first.

 

go to youtube and find a tutorial with a voice you like

[feldwebel]

Okay, this is more like it. So the manual should come first and the videos are supplementary?

[sobek]

While that may be your opinion, you have to consider that most people playing this sim are enthousiasts that have amassed considerable knowledge of aircraft systems. The training lessons are tailored to fit their needs to quickly learn the key functions (you'll hardly ever know everything) and enable them to use all the systems, and from my point of view, with knowing what i know from the Ka-50 module, the transition to the A-10 was pretty smooth, with me having to only occasionally read stuff up in the manual to get to know more advanced functionality.

 

It is next to impossible for the producers to pick up everybody from every niveau, so if you are so unfortunate to find yourself not able to pick up on the stuff that is being presented to you in the training missions, studying should be your first premise. Were they to explain *everything* in the videos, one lesson would take you a week or longer to absorb, and that extra knowledge would be totally unnecessary for taking a dive into the sim and having fun while you're at it. If you want all the extra info, the manual is for you.

[Bahger]

I find the training missions superb. But that's because I know wayyy more than you and complain less. If you have specific issues you need help with, feel free to post them and you'll find help, especially if you refrain from whining.

[Spartan]

-1 Rep dude.

 

1. BETA

2. Need to actually read not do the 3 or so hours of training and think your up up and away.

3. BETA

4. Read

5. Find a different plane game... maybe H.A.W.X is more your thing.

 

Poor form on the post and not very "Constructive" criticism.

[sobek]

[...]

 

[...]

 

Don't turn this into a flame war. Everybody is overwhelmed by this sim at some point.

[feldwebel]

-1 Rep dude.

 

1. BETA

2. Need to actually read not do the 3 or so hours of training and think your up up and away.

3. BETA

4. Read

5. Find a different plane game... maybe H.A.W.X is more your thing.

 

Poor form on the post and not very "Constructive" criticism.

 

Um, I've learned to play, and regularly play, Falcon 4 Allied Force. In other words, no, H.A.W.X. is not my thing. I can't tell you how many time I have heard that overused, trite suggestion in other message boards from people who are in love with the sound of their own voice.

 

There are training missions set up in the Allied Force manual that explain the concepts of what it is about to teach and then has you follow steps. In my opinion, that is a great way to outline the material and teach it in an effective way. I do understand that this is not the same game, so I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings; it wasn't intentional.

 

Somehow writing "poor form" and "not very constructive criticism" in your post seems very ironic....

Edited December 6, 2010 by feldwebel
errors

[leafer]

Easy, guys. Clearly, feldwebel prefers the Jackson from Pulp Fiction. Nothing wrong with wanting an angst bunny to instruct you from behind. :D

[shu77]

Speaking from a training background, there are a couple things that could be done to enhance the flow of the training: covering objectives at the start of the mission, introduction of concepts followed by more detail, reinforcement of key points and introduction of acronyms etc. Regardless, at the end of the day the training is something that needs to be done in conjunction with the manual. The first couple weeks flying for me really felt like I was at work,and the first 50 pages of my note book seemed to fill up very quickly, not to mention the wall full of documents like Batumis approach chart, my HOTAS config and a summary of whats a LGB and a JDAM

 

So without trying to be condescending, all I can say is stick with it. The change in paradigm between this aircrafts use of HOTAS and every other sim on the market takes some getting used to, and even with the new training missions you end up spending a lot of time pressing pause to write notes. but it does start to make sense eventually.

 

Youll probably also get a lot further on these forums if your first posts aren't complaints :)

[159th_Viper]

The training in this game is horrible. Not only does the instructor sound like he is reading the instructions off of a piece of paper in a mono-tone voice, he uses wayyyy too many acronyms and never explains stuff fully. I just tried the navigation tutorial, and all it told me was that I needed to start switching frequencies around. The manual is probably the only effective training tool aside from having someone walk you through.

 

Why bother with the complaint if you cannot be bothered to suggest some sort of constructive solution?

 

Sometimes I wonder........

[zaelu]

reading the manual you can learn everything but with a trainer you can learn a lot faster.

 

we learn things faster from experience first, then by training/teaching from some qualified person then by a manual. This is how our mind works.

 

Is nothing bad to have excellent training missions that can (really) replace the manual if they are exhaustive enough but, I think this is impossible... especially at this point when the sim is in beta.

[EtherealN]

Show me a qualified person who will agree to teach you complex aerial systems without you reading the manual. ;)

 

In actuality, all of them need to go in concert. My own method with simulators is the same as I've used IRL - I check up the manual on the systems I'm learning that day, then I hop into the air with the instructor (in this case, the training mission), and then I use the experience of the flight and/or feedback from the instructor to inform my decision on what I need to look harder into.

 

I really doubt those videos can ever be made such that you watch them once and then you're set. There's just too many systems for a human brain to take in in one go. You need to use the same type of studying methods as you would use at university, at RL flight school, or pretty much any real-life learning that is more complex than how to hit a nail with a hammer. :P

 

(But obviously, the more previous experience one has of similar things, the easier it will get.)

[Nickhawk]

i think the right order for learning the Hog is first read the manual, try things for yourself in quick missions and get a bit familiar with the cockpit and basic function and THEN go over to the training missions.

 

without any knowledge just starting the training missions its a bit hard to understand what exactly the teacher is talking about.

[Spartan]

This is what you should have posted originally, right out of your own text.

 

"There are training missions set up in the Allied Force manual that explain the concepts of what it is about to teach and then has you follow steps. In my opinion, that is a great way to outline the material and teach it in an effective way."

 

This would have gotten you alot further in this forum if you had of approached your current dilemma with this statement to the community.

Try to communicate first before crucifying...

 

p.s Are you aware that the first thing people see when they get into these forums is ,

 

 

DCS: A-10C Warthog (21 Viewing)>>>>>>>>>> Horrible Training

 

 

hense the remark "poor form".

 

Im sorry for the "-1 rep" post, that was bellow the belt,

BUT....

posts like your original are the reason people have a go at you.

when i log on and the first thing i see is the forum thread title "horrible training" and then go investigate just to find that negativity,

you deserve all the flamming that comes your way.

this is suppose to be a place of constructive conversation and suggestions to :helpsmilie: fellow simmers.

not a place to :cry:

 

On a positive note,

Good luck with the :joystick: and i hope you find a method of learning that suits you, :thumbup:

[frosto]

Load the Sim, fire up the engine and duck your nose right into the handbook. Now you can klickiklack all the switches back an forth as showed by the manual. That way i learn best, cause i can try everything written in the manual parallel in the Pit.

Works for me, maybe not for you. But u could give it a shot.

 

Engine startup should be manageable with all the "Startup Procedures" in this Forum.

 

This Sim is on the highest level atm, theres no easy way :D

[element1108]

The guy "reading" off the piece of paper is there to inform you, not entertain you. That doesn't take away from the process he's teaching you and doesn't warrant the "horrible" adjective as you so described.

 

The startup would be 6 hours long if he had to walk you through every single aspect of every single function. This is why there are hudnreds of hours of ground school required before even setting FOOT inside a cockpit of one of these birds.

 

They say to be combat effective in an F-16 you'd need a PH.D's worth of information memorized. That is no small feat, even for all the "falcon" players of the world.

[feldwebel]

Hmmm... I was just doing some training missions learning how to use the weapons systems, and some of the training I did in Falcon supplemented what was being taught, and it all sort of came together. Now I just need to learn how to land correctly with the radios and what not. What I didn't realize before was how important the whole SOI thing is. After changing my SOI around a bit, things are making more sense.

 

Sorry for the negativity, but in my experience it seems to get everyone amped up to the point where they start saying rude things--understandably so because that's the point. And, afterward, people really go out of their way to find a real solution. Not an excuse.

[Heater]

Feldwebel.

 

Find a online squad to join, most will work with "new" or "old" pilots to make the learning curve a bit easier to handle to a new Sim... and as stated read each section and get as much hand's on as possible....

 

I copied the manual over to my e-reader and use it like a check list etc... if questions arise then pause the sim read the section etc...

Edited December 6, 2010 by Heater

[Grimes]

Give the guy a break, I think we've all been frustrated at somepoint with the tutorials. If you miss something you really gotta decide whether to continue in order to learn as much as possible or to restart it to make sure you understand what you might have missed. They really do just give you a basic outline of a system and a quick "how to" for the key functions. They do have a tendency to cover alot of information in a short period of time. Generally speaking I think I played through each of the tutorials at least a half dozen times. The need to replay the tutorials makes me wish they were either split up into smaller sections or had some smart trigger use to skip ahead to key sections. Alot of info gets thrown out in such a short period of time. Some of info is important to the purpose or history of a system, while the rest is more instructional. There are times when it felt like I was back in school nearly dozing off during a boring econ lecture, but for some reason I had my trackIR hat on... That said, these tutorials are a big step up from what they were in Black Shark, but there are still improvements needed.

 

But hey, it could be worse.

http://lay-uh.ytmnd.com/

[EtherealN]

They say to be combat effective in an F-16 you'd need a PH.D's worth of information memorized.

 

While I don't know any F-16 pilot specifically, I do know some military pilots, and hearing them rattle off checklists on planes they haven't flown in years is impressive. (And not just regular takeoff/pre-flight etc, but abnormal operations and all of it.) I do fly IRL, but only privately, and the difference in requirements is one of many orders of magnitude both in general skill but even more so in the level of detail that the learning goes into it. I can pick up several ratings and still not even be close to the amount of studying that a military pilot undergoes before even setting foot inside a jet.

 

But that said, a PhD isn't actually about retaining a lot of information in your head, it's more about research methodology.

 

And yeah Feldwebel, your point is taken, but please do remember that this is not a finished product and your access to a beta version (which, it should be mentioned, is not the version used internally) is a courtesy given for pre-ordering. So since it is a courtesy it is good to keep manners aboard. :) After all, people are more likely to listen to your opinion if they don't feel like they need to hop into the notch. ;)

[mooshim]

FW...

 

Hang in there bud.

 

I actually felt like giving up on this sim... ashamed and frustrated.

 

Remember in Falcon when you finally mastered the Nav system...or how to coordinate flights on the map from several bases to make a Gorilla sortie? --remember that thrill..that kind of lost it's thrill after a few months?

 

Well-- That opportunity is back--in spades in this sim. The simple notion of getting out of it what you put into it. It comes piece-meal..but the satisfaction of mastering one avionics system or the suite of AG weapons or the comms even... It's back. It's yours for the taking.

 

It's not low hanging fruit, though. You gotta challenge yourself...be patient with the sim and yourself.

 

And be courteous to the folks here. They'll help you out with any specific Q. you've got.

 

Your disposition of this sim will change... give it a bit of time.

 

--Just don't ask me anything, It's been almost 2months and I'm a complete tw*t in the cockpit.

 

Cheers,

 

Moosh

:headinarse:

Edited December 6, 2010 by mooshim

[JEFX]

The need to replay the tutorials makes me wish they were either split up into smaller sections/

 

I personnaly think that the tutorials are very good in general (and from a pedagogical point of view, they are just neutral enough to allow each of us to think and learn. The mix of narration, real actions one has to take (moving switches, etc) and pause (and space bar when ready) is just fine.

 

But I have to agree with Grimes that some of those tutorials (especially the navigation one) are too long, or with too many different topics. My personnal whish would be for shorter and more numerous tutorials one broken up smaller topics (in the navigation departement for sure...).

 

But I agree with everyone here that, the best way to get help is to start out positively:smilewink:

 

I just fired up the forum and I saw : horrible training and I was already mad at the unknown guy... Lets give him a break, sure, but let's behave like adults please! The only reason we are ALL here, is because we ALL love flying and sims!

 

 

 

JEFX