bradleyjs Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Gulf War friendly fire incident During the Gulf War, the HARM was involved in a friendly fire incident when the pilot of an F-4G Wild Weasel escorting a B-52 mistook the latter's tail gun radar for an Iraqi AAA site. (This was after the tail gunner of the B-52 had targeted the F-4G, mistaking it for an Iraqi MiG). The pilot launched the missile and then saw that the target was the B-52, which was hit. It survived with shrapnel damage to the tail. The B-52 was subsequently renamed "In HARM’s Way".[5] That's the 1st time I heard that story .. very interesting ... I can see how the "Fog of War" can cause such incidents... Strange that the RWR didn't recognize it as a "non-threat" ... but then again, who knows... Good to know it was only superficial damage. I served in ODS (USAF - Dhahran, SA) and heard many strange stories - especially from the F-15E drivers and how they had to do some "interesting" tactics to attack their target(s). Alienware Area 51 R5 - Intel i9 7980XE (4.7 GHz), 32GB Dual Channel HyperX DDR4 XMP, Dual NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Graphics 11GB GDDR5X SLI, 4.5 TB combo of SSDs/HDDs, Alienware 1500 Watt Multi-GPU Power Supply, Alienware 25” 240Hz Gaming Monitor, Alienware Pro Gaming Keyboard, TM HOTAS, TM Cougar F-16C MFDs, Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals, TrackIR5, Win10 Pro x64
Agiel7 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 When going SEAD in preparation for my actual attack run against an armored column, I do occasionally wish I was back in the 'ol F/A-18E with some HARMs. With my weak-ass machine and the resolutions I'm playing this sim at, I can't tell a Zeus from a T-72 9 times out of 10 on the Maverick's seeker.
ebabil Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) By looking in the DCS: A-10C mission editor ;) It's in the manual. You might find a beta mistake, but it's there. i don't have dcs a-10 yet, free manual or documents available? edit: i found it and started to download via download page. sorry. Edited February 2, 2011 by ebabil FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
GGTharos Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Why strange? RWRs are not perfect and may not contain all possible threat signatures, or a number of signatures might be 'binned' to the same symbol. It isn't the RWR's job to decide what isn't a threat based on what you think the emitter is...it is the RWR's job to display anything that could be a threat, and this includes friendly emitters. That's the 1st time I heard that story .. very interesting ... I can see how the "Fog of War" can cause such incidents... Strange that the RWR didn't recognize it as a "non-threat" ... but then again, who knows... Good to know it was only superficial damage. I served in ODS (USAF - Dhahran, SA) and heard many strange stories - especially from the F-15E drivers and how they had to do some "interesting" tactics to attack their target(s). [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
arteedecco Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 HARM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARM HTS - HARM Targeting System http://defense-update.com/products/h/HTS.htm New, "sniper" pod http://defense-update.com/directory/sniper-xr.htm As was mentioned previously the aircraft carrying the HARM does *not* require radar. However, it does require a targeting pod (HTS, or "Sniper" pods; see above). I don't believe the TGP on the A-10C will suffice and assume it just doesn't have the RWR sensors / processors. The symbology used on the HTS MFCD page uses the same emitter representations as the RWR. From what I've read, it is not enough to simply patch the RWR to the HARM as the HARM uses GPS position to prosecute it's targets. Note that the RWR does not give the pilot range to target, simply azimuth and radar mode indication (inner ring). The HTS is essentially more capable of determining position of the emitter in relation to the aircraft including range. However, there's no reason the HARM couldn't be fitted to the A-10C, including the HTS, or adding HTS capability to the TGP potentially, though that doesn't seem to have been done in RL. As other people have stated the A-10 performance (or lack of) pretty much makes it an airframe that wouldn't be employed in a manner that would put it in the SAM threat environment w/out cover from SEAD a/c. However, I might argue that constantly having 2 AIM-9s on the wing is almost more useless, IMO. Yes, the A-10 has some air-to-air kills (I know of one against a helo), but the one I've read about / heard about was a GAU-8 kill. Frankly, if I was buzzing around in the A-10 I would feel a lot better if at least one ship in the flight had some HARMs on it. They can be fired 180 degrees off azimuth, though they bleed a lot of energy, but at least it gives you a chance. Seems like most enemies we're fighting nowdays have been relegated to MANPADs, which a HARM is completely useless against, so I guess you could go either way on my argument for HARMs on A-10s. Seems like in Kosovo, it would have been nice, or the early days of any invasion when IADS are still somewhat in place and there's a potential for sleeper SAM sites to pop up and target friendly flights. "Snipe" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OS => Win7 64-bit Ultimate | MOBO => ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe | RAM => 8GB | VIDEO CARD => XFX ATI 4850 | CONTROLLER => Saitek X52 | DISPLAY => ASUS 25.5" 1600x1280 | HDD => 150GB WD Raptor (10K RPM)
WarriorX Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 ...it may work with the MIDGET POD! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] "Is that you John Wayne?.......Is this me?" Full Metal Jacket //My Mission Data Card//My Cold Start Checklist //Clearing a Hung Store Tutorial //CDU Offset//Asterisk Error Correction Procedure//JTAC UTM Coordinate Entry Tutorial//JTAC 9 Line Lat Long Coordinate Entry Tutorial
SmokeyTheLung Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 ...it may work with the MIDGET POD! HARMS will only work with the new and improved "20/20" Midget pod (the air force has been covering the costs off LASIK surgery required to improve the midges eyesight) Btw cheers on the lift! System specifications: Computer, joystick, DCS world, Beer
WarriorX Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Thank you sir! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] "Is that you John Wayne?.......Is this me?" Full Metal Jacket //My Mission Data Card//My Cold Start Checklist //Clearing a Hung Store Tutorial //CDU Offset//Asterisk Error Correction Procedure//JTAC UTM Coordinate Entry Tutorial//JTAC 9 Line Lat Long Coordinate Entry Tutorial
Prophet Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 The A-10 is not a good platform for HARM. It would at best be engaging SA-15 or SA-8 in most cases, and giving up at least one pylon for an 800lb missile that is useless against its more likely threats and primary targets. There's no point in equipping this weapon - you just call in the wild weasels. How do I manage to call in this wild weasel again?
slug88 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 How do I manage to call in this wild weasel again? Use the F10 radio menu when available. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
sobek Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Doesn't the HARM support HAS mode (HARM as sensor, so without a fancy pod)? Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
arteedecco Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) Doesn't the HARM support HAS mode (HARM as sensor, so without a fancy pod)? Good point. I think the aircraft has to have some ability to communicate w/ the HARM, but I've heard rumor that A-10s were equipped with HARM, maybe even just as a test. This source seems pretty comprehensive on the HARM and all the various modes: http://www.ausairpower.net/API-AGM-88-HARM.html A quote from the ausairpower.net article: In the simplest of terms, whereas dedicated aircraft such as the F-4G or Tornado ECR will have onboard hardware/software support for the HARM and will directly communicate target parameters to the missile before launch, non-dedicated aircraft must employ a separate computer to interface their nav-attack and RWR systems to the HARM. The thing I noted from that writeup was that the HTS allows the HARM to fire with position info on an emitter and then acquire the emitter enroute, increasing range potential of the weapon. Edited May 31, 2011 by arteedecco "Snipe" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OS => Win7 64-bit Ultimate | MOBO => ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe | RAM => 8GB | VIDEO CARD => XFX ATI 4850 | CONTROLLER => Saitek X52 | DISPLAY => ASUS 25.5" 1600x1280 | HDD => 150GB WD Raptor (10K RPM)
GGTharos Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Wildly. How do I manage to call in this wild weasel again? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
159th_Viper Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 :megalol: Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
GGTharos Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Good point. I think the aircraft has to have some ability to communicate w/ the HARM, but I've heard rumor that A-10s were equipped with HARM, maybe even just as a test. IIRC, and AFAIK, yes, they were tested. Note that the F-16 is the ONLY USAF aircraft to carry the HARM regardless, after it replaced the F-4 as wild weasel. There's just no point in paying for this system for other aircraft. The thing I noted from that writeup was that the HTS allows the HARM to fire with position info on an emitter and then acquire the emitter enroute, increasing range potential of the weapon. It gets even more interesting with the newer RWRs and datalink ... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
arteedecco Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 It gets even more interesting with the newer RWRs and datalink ... Yeah, in Carlo Kopp's article that I linked earlier he details the interaction of the RC-135, JSTARS, and semi-dedicated SEAD aircraft like the F/A-18c via datalink sharing of emitters. Crazy stuff. Well.. FWIW, I vote for adding the HARM to the A-10c available payloads. Seems like a lot of missions (and fun!) are designed w/ A-10c pilots providing their own SEAD. Would be a cool addition IMO even if it's not necessarily true to RL as we know it today... could change in the next conflict. "Snipe" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OS => Win7 64-bit Ultimate | MOBO => ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe | RAM => 8GB | VIDEO CARD => XFX ATI 4850 | CONTROLLER => Saitek X52 | DISPLAY => ASUS 25.5" 1600x1280 | HDD => 150GB WD Raptor (10K RPM)
sobek Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Well.. FWIW, I vote for adding the HARM to the A-10c available payloads. Not a snowballs chance in hell. :) Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
GGTharos Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Yeah, in Carlo Kopp's article that I linked earlier he details the interaction of the RC-135, JSTARS, and semi-dedicated SEAD aircraft like the F/A-18c via datalink sharing of emitters. Crazy stuff. Every now and then Carlo seems to get a thing or two right (Actually, he gets a bunch of things right, which is why he can disguise his propaganda so easily) but he missed the boat on this one, or hasn't updated to current equipment. F/A-18E/F/G's, I think F-15E's and F-16 wild weasel, as well as F-22's and F-35's are practically their own ISR platforms these days. Potentially such capability might transfer to other aircraft. Well.. FWIW, I vote for adding the HARM to the A-10c available payloads. Seems like a lot of missions (and fun!) are designed w/ A-10c pilots providing their own SEAD. Would be a cool addition IMO even if it's not necessarily true to RL as we know it today... could change in the next conflict. Absolutely not. And it will not happen. :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
arteedecco Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Absolutely not. Too bad. Oh well, better to get some of the kinks worked out and interoperability w/ BS buttoned up. But I do like the idea. BTW, I haven't seen anything out there about this, but are there plans to release an SDK, or some detailed documentation on interacting with all the exposed .lua scripts? Would be good help to those of us interested in mod'ing. And it will not happen. :) Then again, I wouldn't consider flying around in a light, single-engine (reciprocating) aircraft, armed primarily with WP over severely hostile territory a real plausible solution either. War has a way of driving previously unthinkable improvisation. Or using an A-10 as a fire bomber. Anyhow, my arguments are somewhat different in nature and I tend to agree with your summation. Why don't you like Carlo? I didn't realize he was notorious! Out of curiosity, what is your background? "Snipe" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OS => Win7 64-bit Ultimate | MOBO => ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe | RAM => 8GB | VIDEO CARD => XFX ATI 4850 | CONTROLLER => Saitek X52 | DISPLAY => ASUS 25.5" 1600x1280 | HDD => 150GB WD Raptor (10K RPM)
159th_Viper Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Out of curiosity, what is your background? :P Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
jazjar Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 So GG, you do not believe in Kopp's idea of Russian and Chinese military superiority? ;) I find it somewhat believable, to a degree. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 Yeah ... maybe in numbers :) Not in Air Force. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
jazjar Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 I wouldn't imagine that all the fancy russian toys Kopp describes are out there in droves. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
711Hancer Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 What a stupid incident: During the Gulf War, the HARM was involved in a friendly fire incident when the pilot of an F-4G Wild Weasel escorting a B-52 mistook the latter's tail gun radar for an Iraqi AAA site. (This was after the tail gunner of the B-52 had targeted the F-4G, mistaking it for an Iraqi MiG). The pilot launched the missile and then saw that the target was the B-52, which was hit. It survived with shrapnel damage to the tail. The B-52 was subsequently renamed "In HARM’s Way"
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