Improved IR Image (TGP IR)

[Rongor]

Your norwegian friend didnt lie :) But this might also be beyond the scope of this simulation.

Although I understand things getting complicated if the program starts to determine whether hot or not, the present situation is somewhat dissapointing.

A plane would be noticed in real life FLIR on a comfortably distance by its bright shining trail of exhaust emissions (we are talking of a trail of at least some meters here) and the engines exhausts mostly. As these are not provided in the present game (to be correct: I never noticed them ingame), the AA-mode in the TGP might be a somewhat gamey interpretation of a FLIR view but no simulation at all.

Same goes for helicopters. Those would appear brightly around their exhausts. Regarding them I sometimes (in RL) find it difficult to recognise them at all, if they are heading towards my position. Their exhausts are hidden behind their body and not seldom the cockpit crew then discovers the helo before I do.

So after all I can support the idea of getting the IR view improved in the game. But I doubt this can be made without heavy code rearrangements.

 

Simply put, at present vehicles in the in game FLIR appear with their engines turned off and cooled down.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Rongor

[Chazz_BMF]

I remember from my time as an recon scout in the army, that in winter time the leopard 2 could see the heat rise from our bodies, even though we where hitten in a ditch and sorrounded by bush. A leason learned the hard way! Even the smaller handheld FLIR had and amazing zoom and could easily see traises from people from far away.

[Cholerix]

Since the discussion was brought up again: There is something about improved infrared sensors in the 1.1.1.0 changelog.

 

• Brightness/contrast effect for sensors (TGP and Maverick) has been made much more realistic looking.

[LostOblivion]

I think it was brought up because of that. :-) Anyway, as Rongor says, time spent on implementing something that is realistic, yet does not impact the pilots in any major way, like heat from footsteps, is obviously not worth the effort, but quite the contrary for things that would, like the jet trails. :-)

[sobek]

I think it was brought up because of that. :-) Anyway, as Rongor says, time spent on implementing something that is realistic, yet does not impact the pilots in any major way, like heat from footsteps, is obviously not worth the effort, but quite the contrary for things that would, like the jet trails. :-)

 

Jet trails are in the game. :)

[LostOblivion]

Jet trails are in the game. :)

 

Really? As Rongor, I have never seen the exhaust heat behind helos on the FLIR...

[sobek]

Really? As Rongor, I have never seen the exhaust heat behind helos on the FLIR...

 

Oh you meant in the FLIR :doh: :)

[LostOblivion]

Oh you meant in the FLIR :doh: :)

Yeah, said jet trails, ment exhaust, sorry. :-)

[Frostiken]

You can't see "exhaust trails" with FLIR, unless you're referring to contrails, but that's specifically because clouds (condensed water) are visible in IR.

 

Under 'normal' conditions, aircraft exhaust (or any kind of extremely hot gas) can sometimes appear 'bright' in the area immediately behind the exhaust, but otherwise looks exactly like hot gasses do in visible light - rippling of the air and such. There's no big visible hot trail of gas or clouds of heat that you can see on FLIR. Certainly seeing 'rising heat' from people on the ground is impossible and really the only way that could have happened was if it was extremely cold, they were extremely hot, and were creating clouds of condensate from their bodies. Otherwise, doesn't happen. If FLIR and thermal imaging would show temperature differentials of only a few degrees in open air, you wouldn't see anything through FLIR at all.

 

Oh, and afterburner in FLIR looks exactly like you'd expect. Up close (less than 0.5 nm) it's so hot from an F-15E -229 that it washes out the aperture.

 

For the future, can you people actually specify what kind of thermal imaging system you've used, under what conditions you used it, and if you're certain it actually applies to the A-10? Because I'm fairly certain I'm the only forum-goer around here with real-life LANTIRN / LITENING / SNIPER XR pod experience.

 

Not all FLIR is created equal. Highly sensitive cameras can see a single thumbprint for minutes after it was pressed on something for only a second, but these are not the imagers aircraft use, because such a system would be so drowned in noise it would be useless. You cannot see footprints of people walking by using any of the three series of pods above, because they aren't that sensitive by specific design. Saying that implementing it would be realistic belies your lack of actual knowledge on the subject and, worse, really cheeses me off.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Frostiken

[Eddie]

You can't see "exhaust trails" with FLIR.

 

You probably can, with lesser systems supplied to civilian organisations. ;)

[Frostiken]

You probably can, with lesser systems supplied to civilian organisations. ;)

I don't have a lot of experience with civilian or 'lesser' FLIR cameras, but I honestly don't think you would. I mean, if hot air from an aircraft were visible in the camera, wouldn't the entire image be a washed-out mess? The atmosphere itself is wildly divergent in temperature, heat rising from an asphalt road would blind you, and I imagine even heat from the FLIR aperture itself would cause immense visual noise.

 

I mean, we already established the obvious a few pages ago, that atmospheric air is fairly transparent to infrared, so I don't expect that can really 'see' simply hot air with *any* civilian model :P

Edited October 26, 2011 by Frostiken

[Eddie]

Can't work out how myself, but there seem to be a lot of people out there ademant that it's the case. I can only assume that the cheap systems used by emergency services and other organisations have issues that military grade kit doesn't.

 

The oldest FLIR system I've ever seen first hand was the 'optical' guidance system on the Rapier FSC SAM system, that was very much 80's kit and even that didn't have exhaust trails. Hell, you had to adjust the gain to even see the reheat plume of a jet doing and air display only a few thousand feet away.

 

The only knowledge of commercial FLIR systems I have is what you see on various police shows featuring helicopter FLIR footage of car chases, and I have to say most of them look far from impressive in comparison to LITENING/SNIPER and their ground vehicle equivalents.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Eddie

[GGTharos]

I think it depends a whole lot on the frequency that the CCD is sensitive to. One of the reasons old missiles were rear-aspect only was because the only frequencies they were sensitive to were those generated by the hot air coming out of the tailpipe - IIRC.

[Rongor]

As I was the one bringing the "hot air" up, I remind you I was also speaking of only some meters length. Here an example foto:

This of course doesnt in any way demand all IR systems being able to display this and also I dont know what the TGP of an A-10 can do. All I wanted to say, was the current IR images in game being quite "cold" in my opinion. At least the exhaust signatures are something I think instantly of, when regarding the title of this thread.

[dok_rp]

I really don't think you guys should keep your hopes anywhere above zero on an update do the TGP IR image model.

 

It had already been stated the its current model is WIP and it was what they were able to deliver with the time and resources they had.

 

Take it as an experimentation model to quench our thirst of a functioning - even if at times far from reality - IR sensor.

 

There are tremendous inconsistencies with the model that have been beaten up to death, and the fix they've stated in the changelog for the upcoming patch refers to brightness and contrast update and not to the IR filter itself.

 

Wags has also stated in this very thread that changing the current TGP black/white filter to a more realistic model is way beyond the scope of a patch and significant changes should only be expected for the next module. POST HERE.

 

Honestly I think they could've made a better job with the black/white filter since in many situations it's downright impossible to identify targets. The forests of fire and lava rivers, not to mention the searing crop fields are a considerable drawback.

 

Of course we have great flight dynamics, and good overall simulation, but cutting corners in the simulation of a system that is pretty much THE most important one in the A10 and implementing it in-sim in a way that it could not be improved seems weird to say the least.

 

Well, nevermind... 2014 is not that far off. :pilotfly:

[LostOblivion]

snip

 

I didn't really say the submarine periscope FLIR has the same sensory as any modern day TGPs, how would I know, I just said what my friend said, but you are right in that I have no experience with what you obviously know everything about, sir. But the fact that those periscopes they use on our subs with optics and all claim to be worth around the same as that of an F-16 tells at least me they are military grade equipment, and not some cheap 'civilian stuff'. So whereas the footprint signatures hold true for a stationary FLIR looking at people walking on a pier 100 meters away, it doesn't mean it would be noticable in a TGP equipped in an actual aircraft.

Edited October 27, 2011 by LostOblivion

[Jesterv2]

FLIR not realistic??

 

hello guys,i would like to know about some things here.

ive noticed that the FLIR mode is (in my opinion) not very realistic,i hope i can explain most of it with an image.

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Look at that,apparently the trees are on fire,and the ground is made out of ice....

some areas on the ground are white hot,others are black cold.and switching WHOT and BHOT doesnt make a difference.

this makes it very hard to locate vehicles,i'm pretty annoyed by this.

is this normal,or am i doing something wrong?

[SmokeyTheLung]

This has been discussed to death,

 

No, you're not doing anything wrong. You can adjust gain/level settings while in FLIR mode but you will most likely still experence the same issues

[Eddie]

Has already been discussed at length.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=69793&highlight=Flir

[cichlidfan]

The final answer from Wags (easier than reading that whole thread)

is here.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1203306&postcount=106

[Megagoth1702]

IR system overhaul

 

Hey folks.

 

Currently the IR system works like this - do some brightness change to TGP picture, do some contrast change. If White hot invert colors... Which is why tracers in W HOT mode look black...

 

ED please slowly start overhauling the system - creating a special "IR" mode with units having IR textures.... Look at arma2 for example. It is way to extreme over there but one can soften up the effect and tweak it depending on distance and what not.

 

 

Currently on certain ground types it is really hard to see a hot moving tank in the cold area at night... You know - those darker ground types with a lot of "texture" to them.

 

Thanks in advance.

[SmokeyTheLung]

Which is why tracers in W HOT mode look black...

This fact really bugs me as well. Actually, any bullet or round will appear "hot" when viewed through IR. The friction as a round is forced down a riffled barrel (which is just slightly smaller the the projectile diameter [or in the GAU-8s case the driving band]) causes the round to heat up rapidly. According to the internet :smartass: a .556 round is 500ish degrees F after it leaves the muzzle. Hot lead!

It's an effect that can be seen first hand on most RL FLIR videos. I really hope ED will consider simulating this in the future.

[sobek]

I really hope ED will consider simulating this in the future.

 

They do, but it's beyond a small fix. It's definately on their list.

[Megagoth1702]

They do, but it's beyond a small fix. It's definately on their list.

Yeah absolutely agree.

 

But... Yeah - at least they know.

[GGTharos]

They knew all the time. Not something that can/will be fixed soon, IIRC.