This is an entertaining assessment of the DCS A-10 experience...

[PlainSight]

When you find yourself in the heat of battle, where guys on TS give you their info about SAM launches, RWR beeping, AOA and altitude warnings going off, while you track another group of targets in your tgp, there won't be an interactive baby-sitting instructor or active pause saving your arse.

 

That's why trainings are supposed to be hard, not easy and interactive.

[Kottara]

This is the first time in very long time of computer gaming history for me, that i needed to seriously put up effort to beat up the learning curve.

It feels awesome afterwards, like an accomplishment of a huge training task with reward of just to fly that thing, not to mention to utilize the huge payload of varied munition.

I would never trade this experience to any console&pc poop the big name house's are jamming down our throats as "experience"

We already have game mode for those who want it, but sim mode is as finest as it should be right now.

<S> ED for making this

[BBQ]

If money is no object--hire an A10 pilot, have them create a syllabus and agree to be your instructor pilot. I've had such an experience (didn't cost anything though) in Falcon 4.0--nearly a decade ago. I lovingly recall the check rides, my hands aching and sweating, from startup to shutdown. It was quite an experience--and it only lasted a few months--long enough to learn using the TACAN to navigate--fixes, takeoffs, formation flying, and landings.

[Joker_]

The other great thing about the sim is that it attracts grown-ups. Do a Google search on "putatively." Hasn't been used on a flight sim forum since 1994.

 

-- Joker

[JimMack]

I released the early review code to Tim Stone with the following points:

This is a hardcore study simulation of an aircraft. It is not HAWX, though you can operate in GAME mode, and have various options between the two.

This code will be updated with patches, particularly for those with lower end systems.

 

I should have mentioned that on Youtube there are now numerous training videos from the community.

Ideally, I suppose we could have created a 3 year training syllabus that it takes to train an A-10C pilot, but we do not have Government budgets and have to rely on our customers having a reasonable grasp of aviation, and helping others (which they do with great skill).

Actually I find it amazing as to how quickly many have got up to speed with systems etc. Much faster than a normal pilot under training in the real world!

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

Systems are the easy part. I bet most of them don't even know the boldface or even how to fly extended trail properly. There's a lot of other stuff that real pilots learn in the USAF.

[Thisdale]

Terribly sorry to jump in here, but i disagree with 100% of your statement.

 

Let me clarify why in the most humble way possible;

 

One thing i love about dcs is that it's a sandbox. There's no unlocking of weapons, no unlocking missions, no accomplishments, no XP points, there's even no intro! I love such games, where everything is available from the start and where motivation for playing is not unlocking or collecting stuff, but the gaming experience itself! I play it because i love flying, not because i need to achieve level 30 or get a 1000th gun kill.

 

True sim doesn't need rewards, the reward itself is gained knowledge and successfully accomplished mission.

 

That's one reason i sold my PS3, stupid GT5 and it's collecting-unlocking-grinding nature, like some lab rat experiment.

 

Rewards and ackknowledged accomplishments are an intricate part of any functioning body; business/politics/personal... be it a game or real life. It needs not be experience points and meaningless "levels"of course, but a recognition for valor and efforts towards a greater goal.

 

Please take a look at these, these, or even consider the experience badges the flight instructors of Jetstream wear; remember that 2000hours of flight on the Hornet Badge Flayling and Spanky and others wear? These are all "achievements"; Acknowledgements of valor and experience in service of their chosen profession.

 

Consider also that most military countries on earth have a "reward" (read:achievemnet, thank you, good job) for being shot and survived. The USA calls it the Purple Heart.

 

EDIT: my previous post, concerning "complicated" training, or the lack of it:

You guys watched Jetstream? It's not about spoon-feeding information, it's about repetition, discipline and self initiative. Drinking from the firehose.

 

This is contrairy to what they say in Jetstream (flayling uses the term Spoonfeeding specifically; meaning that they are "feeding" their students one little bit at a time, even tho their "buckets are full"). Furthermore, repetition (as i previously mentionned in my earlier post) is spoonfeeding. I think you might confuse the term with "making it easy on the student", which is not the subject of the conversation in the Jetstream video, or the forementioned article.

 

There's definitely a need for somewhat standardised course, but these things aren't supposed to be user-friendly. There's a reason why so much info is thrown at you. If you'll grind through it, you'll process critical info faster and made instant right decisions in the heat of battles. You don't think what TMS down or china forward does, you have to know it before you press it.

 

Author should forget his fantasies about making learn fun, anyone willing to learn and master, WILL get it, it's not a rocket science.

 

Things always need to be User-friendly; the more user-friendly, the more fun it is to learn it, and the quicker it will get learned, as the information is assimilated faster. To this point, i'd like to stress also that in shows like "Jetstream" (a perfect example of this), the students have 24hours teachers with them. They have questions? they get answers. Don't just read in the 8 episodes... they have been practicing for 8 months... i'm pretty sure they didn't spent this whole time simply reading the hornet's manual alone in a little room or roamed the internet to finally learn why (not how) a SPI doesn't go easily from their TGP to their MAV. They get help. And in the context of their profession, it is like us purchasing a product and loading the tutorials. The difference here is that simulators have a tendency to forget about this important part of the game; and developpers believe that;

 

1. The clients who buy a simulators "know what they are getting into"

2. The clients who buy their simulators "already know enough about sims and armement and such to function properly out of the box".

 

The Author should definitely stick to his fantasies about learning made fun. The best selling games in the industry are FUN, not work. This applies to the most hardcore of games... the more content, the more fun there is to be had learning it; hence the more opportunities for a product to be oriented in that fashion.

 

And no, not everyone "gets it" by re-reading the same line of text in a manual for the 100th time, i certainly do not. I have to go out of my way to ask people for help and watch youtube videos and read forum posts that better explain the intricate mecanics behind the functions of whatever i'm trying to learn. Flight Sims are HARD, and they are certainly not the most popular of softwares for the general public.

 

If a company that creates those are willing to simply push the teaching aspect of their product a little bit, they'll simply get more sells out of it. And this, does not mean they have to dumb down their product to reach that goal.

[GGTharos]

This is contrairy to what they say in Jetstream (flayling uses the term Spoonfeeding specifically; meaning that they are "feeding" their students one little bit at a time, even tho their "buckets are full"). Furthermore, repetition (as i previously mentionned in my earlier post) is spoonfeeding. I think you might confuse the term with "making it easy on the student", which is not the subject of the conversation in the Jetstream video, or the forementioned article.

 

Nothing is stopping you from repeating things on your own.

 

 

Things always need to be User-friendly; the more user-friendly, the more fun it is to learn it, and the quicker it will get learned, as the information is assimilated faster.

 

Join the USAF, see how 'user friendly' it is. The point is you have it easier in many respects than any real fighter pilot ever will.

 

To this point, i'd like to stress also that in shows like "Jetstream" (a perfect example of this), the students have 24hours teachers with them. They have questions? they get answers. Don't just read in the 8 episodes... they have been practicing for 8 months... i'm pretty sure they didn't spent this whole time simply reading the hornet's manual alone in a little room or roamed the internet to finally learn why (not how) a SPI doesn't go easily from their TGP to their MAV. They get help.

 

Those shows aren't a perfect example of anything. The people selected to fly fighters are of very high caliber to begin with. Intelligent, highly motivated - physical condition aside. These are the guys who WILL AND DO sit in their chair and chair-fly every procedure there is. Consumers of this product? Not likely.

 

and developpers believe that;

 

1. The clients who buy a simulators "know what they are getting into"

2. The clients who buy their simulators "already know enough about sims and armement and such to function properly out of the box".

 

Incorrect. Developers are well aware of the education problem. But education is not their proffession, and as I've mentioned before, you're already getting way more education for $60 than you ever will on a real aircraft.

 

The Author should definitely stick to his fantasies about learning made fun. The best selling games in the industry are FUN, not work. This applies to the most hardcore of games... the more content, the more fun there is to be had learning it; hence the more opportunities for a product to be oriented in that fashion.

 

Flight simulations require work to learn. Period, end of story. This is why they are simulations and not arcade shooters. You are given the opportunity to operate an aircraft with realistic fidelity, in exchange you must learn how to operate it.

 

And no, not everyone "gets it" by re-reading the same line of text in a manual for the 100th time, i certainly do not. I have to go out of my way to ask people for help and watch youtube videos and read forum posts that better explain the intricate mecanics behind the functions of whatever i'm trying to learn. Flight Sims are HARD, and they are certainly not the most popular of softwares for the general public.

 

They aren't hard, just like math isn't hard. Some people are simply resistant to it for a number of reasons (even those who are not 'wired' for it because their artistic side of the brain is dominant or whatever can be quite good at it. They just have to apply themselves, but they don't wanna - and good on them too, they likely have better things to do).

 

You have a support base right here. What's the problem? You're not going to get all this compiled in some sort of in-game flight instructor. It's just way too difficult. If you can't follow the in-game tutorials and merge the information with the manual, then you come here, people will explain stuff. It simply is not possible for ED to cater to everyone's style of being educated. There's just not enough time and money for such a thing.

 

If a company that creates those are willing to simply push the teaching aspect of their product a little bit, they'll simply get more sells out of it. And this, does not mean they have to dumb down their product to reach that goal.

 

They've pushed plenty, it's just that some people have failed to notice. And all the same, it won't work for everyone. That is unfortunate and unavoidable.

 

As I said before, despite the new tutorial system, ED is still learning lessons with respect to teaching. Not all problems can be solved.

[winz]

The only thing I kinda miss in DCS:A10C are practice missions, like they were in FC 2.0 (i.e. F15C- Sensor practice). Sure, they are easy to do in mission editor, but it is nice to have such missions out of the box.

[BBQ]

Regarding the three excellent characteristics of a good student--my IP (F-16 pilot) took it upon himself to train me--in the midst of an ACTIVE career. At one point he remarked that it helped him--kept him on his toes--also helped him learn to be an IP, which I think, he eventually became. The man used nearly all 24 hours in the day. He was curious, dedicated--passionate would be the word I would use. When I become passionate about learning something, there is nothing that can stop me.

 

Now if I could just stay passionate about one thing, and stop trying to move to other things!

 

Because of the time difference between my location and Europe--I often had to wake up and do a check ride at 4am. Obviously I had to adjust to whenever my IP was available. And if I missed one thing--I was notorious for missing the fuel check calls (which seemed to me to be about every 10 seconds lol)--he would really let me have it. If he asked me to rejoin, and I didn't do it AGGRESIVELY he would lay into me. I was generally too careful. All of this was quite difficult--considering I didn't have TrackIR--constantly having to use the coolie hat to view instruments. Nearly the entire flight was head's down (aside from formation flying). As I said before--we never even made it to weapon's training. Everything in the beginning was focused on takeoff, landing, and TACAN navigation procedures. I'm trying to recall those procedures now, and apply them to this simulation. I wish I would have kept the training materials he had created for me! I'm trying to discern it all from the available pdf's linked to elsewhere on this site.

Edited April 12, 2011 by BBQ
add

[BBQ]

Keep thinking of other things--

 

The idea was to make me an IP--ultimately have 5 or 6 IP's and provide training to the community. I think it was actually part of a formal Microprose project--but right when things were rolling, Microprose disappeared.

[GGTharos]

Interesting ... most of all flights should be very visual rather than heads down. But perhaps that was a flight sim limitation.

 

In any case, the whole IP thing has been thought of before, and again, and in the end it's too costly/time consuming/whatever.

 

I mean, what do you do with people who can't hack it but demand all this stuff? In squadrons we toss'em out (ok, a few squadrons do, mine included). As a 'community' thing, being selective with your students only gets you ragged on. It'd be hell on the IPs.

 

Because of the time difference between my location and Europe--I often had to wake up and do a check ride at 4am. Obviously I had to adjust to whenever my IP was available. And if I missed one thing--I was notorious for missing the fuel check calls (which seemed to me to be about every 10 seconds lol)--he would really let me have it. If he asked me to rejoin, and I didn't do it AGGRESIVELY he would lay into me. I was generally too careful. All of this was quite difficult--considering I didn't have TrackIR--constantly having to use the coolie hat to view instruments. Nearly the entire flight was head's down (aside from formation flying). As I said before--we never even made it to weapon's training. Everything in the beginning was focused on takeoff, landing, and TACAN navigation procedures. I'm trying to recall those procedures now, and apply them to this simulation. I wish I would have kept the training materials he had created for me! I'm trying to discern it all from the available pdf's linked to elsewhere on this site.

[PlainSight]

Terribly sorry to jump in here, but i disagree with 100% of your statement.

 

Let me clarify why in the most humble way possible...

 

 

No problem, but i still think that such complicated sim will require SOME discipline and self-initiative. There is a degree of responsibility on the user, to go out and seek information himself. Not every detail will be brought on a plate to you, but every detail is already out there.

 

Don't cry if there's some missing info, the community is your instructor, people here help and guide others who are willing to learn, 24/7.

 

Remember what was the first thing Jetstream rookies had to do, whey they started to learn? RTFM, 900 something pages of the hornets "user manual". And no one was bitching about why they have to read it, they just did it.

Edited April 12, 2011 by PlainSight

[636_Castle]

True sim doesn't need rewards, the reward itself is gained knowledge and successfully accomplished mission.

 

Very wise words here. It's all about the pride, landing safely with all of your boys knowing you carried out a duty with precision, in a tight situation - all thanks to training.

 

Although getting medals in the logbook is as about as satisfying as it gets for me.

 

Then you sit back with a cold one, watching the sun set behind your Hog. Attractive woman walks by. "You see that jet right there? The one with the 30mm cannon on it? I'm uhh...I'm flyin' that..."

 

:D

Edited April 12, 2011 by 636_Castle

[PlainSight]

Very wise words here. It's all about the pride, landing safely with all of your boys knowing you carried out a duty with precision, in a tight situation - all thanks to training.

 

Although getting medals in the logbook is as about as satisfying as it gets for me.

 

Then you sit back with a cold one, watching the sun set behind your Hog. Attractive woman walks by. "You see that jet right there? The one with the 30mm cannon on it? I'm uhh...I'm flyin' that..."

 

:D

 

I came to this conclusions while grinding at GT5 for the 100th time.

 

Imagine we'd have to do 100 takeoffs and 100 gun kills just to unlock tgp. It would cost 5.000.000 credits

 

500 gun kills and 10.000.000 credits to unlock maverick missiles. Each missile would cost 5.000.000 credits

 

100 flight hours for the lgbs to become available and another 2.000.000 credits to buy one

 

1000 kills for the night vision goggles, 500.000 credits to buy a set

 

200 hours to unlock cluster bombs, 750.000 a piece

 

2000 kills and 300 flight hours for a jdam, 1.000.000 a piece

 

Every killed unit earns you some amount of credits

 

Would anyone enjoy playing such "game", where the goal is unlocking instead of flying?

[636_Castle]

I came to this conclusions while grinding at GT5 for the 100th time.

 

Imagine we'd have to do 100 takeoffs and 100 gun kills just to unlock tgp. It would cost 5.000.000 credits

 

500 gun kills and 10.000.000 credits to unlock maverick missiles. Each missile would cost 5.000.000 credits

 

100 flight hours for the lgbs to become available and another 2.000.000 credits to buy one

 

1000 kills for the night vision goggles, 500.000 credits to buy a set

 

200 hours to unlock cluster bombs, 750.000 a piece

 

2000 kills and 300 flight hours for a jdam, 1.000.000 a piece

 

Every killed unit earns you some amount of credits

 

Would anyone enjoy playing such "game", where the goal is unlocking instead of flying?

 

You mean THIS game? :D

[delta9856]

I think it is rewarding enough to come in for a gun run and destroy ground targets and know that you just helped out ally ground troops.

[WarriorX]

Wow, some great discussion and debate here.

 

The over-arch to me, is that the flight simulation community is a small niche group, and I want to see it grow. Once this sim hit's Steam, we will see a lot of new pilots coming in here. Some will be seasoned, but most will be green.

 

I too realize that this high fidelity, military grade study sim is not for everyone, learning this sim takes patience, dedication, hard work, and perseverance. It is especially hard on the person who has never touched a flight sim before DCS A-10C.

 

But, the reward is so sweet once you have put in the time.

 

Those who do decide to decide to put in the time and effort are going to need Community help.

 

So let's keep building on the outstanding people and resources that we have here already. I challenge you reading this to look back at your journey learning this sim and create something that will help the future new pilots. We can never have too many Guides, Walkthrough's, Instructional Video's, etc.

 

Take a new pilot under your wing and help them out. Doing this, will help keep our beloved Flight Sim Genre alive and ensure more great titles in the future.

[Laud]

I have to agree with a lot of points brought up here:

 

- It's a hard and long way to go - even when you're not new to flight-simming. Studying RL stuff available on the net (AFI11-whatsoever, TO-, etc.) and trying to adsorb everything useful out of it, and as a squadron leader: right after you slightly begin to understand stuff, teach it to your squadmates.

 

- The reward really is getting better. And by getting better I don't mean kill more stuff in a shorter time, but fly according to RL procedures within RL limits, while flying precise formations with your squadmates. Doing all this in an online squadron is a 100% extra feature. I don't know if I could motivate myself if I would be a SP.

 

- Learning by myself just with the different documents available on the net and of course the DCS-manual and the help of the community, gives that extra immersion of "simulating the life of a fighter pilot". Not just flying and fighting, but also a lot of studying - just like in RL.

 

My 2cents...

[ErichVon]

After me playing Aces High for 4 years, other than a full instrument landing in cloud down to the runway, what is the big deal landing this Warthog in full sim mode offline or online? I can do it. Some of the airfields are a wee bit shorter than others!

 

And I am hardly proficient at doing anything with this plane other than, in full sim mode: cold ramp start, taxi to the runway, takeoff, fly the pattern and land it. I like cold starting it in the dark.

 

I navigate using the F10 map.

 

I'm really getting good at going into a SAM site and getting shot down! LOL But sometimes I can fake the sams out by getting down into the hills.

 

This sim is a lot more fun than the game from Texas.

 

Erich

 

 

 

 

 

...even if you don't agree with it.

 

"Wot I Think" by Tim Stone

 

I don't agree with it, not because I don't have compassion for his technical difficulties -- I do, and I'm grateful I don't suffer from them myself -- but because I did not buy this sim in order to experience a middle ground between arcade simming and study simming. Maybe he has a point about this being a commercial "sweet spot" but I bought DCS A-10 because I wanted to experience "the whole hog" (forgive me...) which I think it delivers. It took me three months of the Betas to get up to speed and now I simply cannot imagine simming without 15-minute ramp starts.

[Headspace]

Those who do decide to decide to put in the time and effort are going to need Community help.

 

So let's keep building on the outstanding people and resources that we have here already. I challenge you reading this to look back at your journey learning this sim and create something that will help the future new pilots. We can never have too many Guides, Walkthrough's, Instructional Video's, etc.

 

Take a new pilot under your wing and help them out. Doing this, will help keep our beloved Flight Sim Genre alive and ensure more great titles in the future.

[/QUote]

Agreed.

[SonofEil]

I came to this conclusions while grinding at GT5 for the 100th time.

 

Imagine we'd have to do 100 takeoffs and 100 gun kills just to unlock tgp. It would cost 5.000.000 credits

 

500 gun kills and 10.000.000 credits to unlock maverick missiles. Each missile would cost 5.000.000 credits

 

100 flight hours for the lgbs to become available and another 2.000.000 credits to buy one

 

1000 kills for the night vision goggles, 500.000 credits to buy a set

 

200 hours to unlock cluster bombs, 750.000 a piece

 

2000 kills and 300 flight hours for a jdam, 1.000.000 a piece

 

Every killed unit earns you some amount of credits

 

Would anyone enjoy playing such "game", where the goal is unlocking instead of flying?

 

Actually, what you speak of is very similar to a much-requested feature: inventory!

It's been brought up in the forums many times, usually in a Dynamic Campaign mudfight, that it'd be great, and somewhat realistic, to have finite supplies of planes/weapons/fuel. And to have a re-up system, not so much based on "reward", but based on a predetermined logistics and availability scheme.

It's obviously not exactly what you're talking about, but just tweak it the right way and it could become a viable and "rewarding" part of flight sims!

[Laud]

But this whole inventory-thing can easiely be done by the mission-builder. Just don't put that much expensive high-tech weapons onto the aircraft.

 

Put some Mk-82, leave the TGP home and let the pilot do the job "A"-style if you want to. Why does this require a special feature of the game itself?

[Scooternutz]

now I simply cannot imagine simming without 15-minute ramp starts.

 

ROGER THAT! :thumbup:

[Irregular programming]

But this whole inventory-thing can easiely be done by the mission-builder. Just don't put that much expensive high-tech weapons onto the aircraft.

 

Put some Mk-82, leave the TGP home and let the pilot do the job "A"-style if you want to. Why does this require a special feature of the game itself?

 

Because the player can always rearm, thus you can't design your missions around it.