Support for more types of Head Tracking Software.

[Druid_]

@ Druid...

 

what is my stance?

If you don't know then I'm sure I don't :smilewink: (immovable springs to mind though).

Edited May 29, 2011 by Druid_

[Dudikoff]

ijozic, I have to say it is not correct to say version3 and version5 of TrackIR are the same thing as I've had version3 with VE and version 5 which I have now is noticeably better in about everything (tracking, look of the TrackIR unit, re centering if it looses track and better control of profile curves)... I know this is beside the point of current discussion but I wanted to correct you on this and to get that out of the way so it doesn't look like NP are ripping people off with TrackIR 5 if you already have older version.

 

You missed my point. Yes, obviously it's an improved product, otherwise who would buy it (I did call the 4 and 5 refined versions of the 3). The point was that they were not inventive at all - it was still the same product albeit with better specs and thus the better handling.

 

This is what the companies usually do when they have such a position (Creative Labs springs to mind). They don't give you a definitive version, but leave a lot of slack there so they can sell you an improved version over and over again and since they don't have any competition, not only they don't have to invest large sums into R&D for some new inventive products, but they can set prices as they see fit. If Track IR 4 was what Track IR 5 was and Track IR 5 used a webcam or some other system which removed the need for a reflector, that would have been something else. So, while this is all legit and all and I don't blame them for doing things the way they did, it also doesn't mean we have to like it and not try to support the alternative, especially if it's more convenient and free (if you have a good enough webcam already) to boot.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Dudikoff

[Wolf Rider]

We all know your your stance that they hacked or ripped off Naturalpoint as it is repeated many times without any proof or arguments.

 

nah... its actually a fact

 

On the other hands, if what the people working with ED say about agreement with the NP is true, it sounds like a blackmail to keep their monopolistic position. Now why would they do that if they had a superior product and had nothing to fear from some open source "hack" projects? Well, guess what? Since the advent of face tracking, their non-inventive consumer line of products becomes obsolete over night because it's unnecessarily clunky to use (as you need to wear some kind of a reflector) and very expensive for what you get.

 

well Facetrack still requires wearing one of those unnecessary and clunky reflector/ diode thingies.

Superior product? ... well they are the defacto standard and nothing else comes close to quality of the "headtracking experience" that Naturalpoint offer.

Some idiot wrote that perhaps and just perhaps, Naturalpoint may see things differently if hack free competition was available... is there ijozic?

 

The problem is that with the open interface and the open source tracking software which works on webcams, they would lose the need for specific hardware to sell to you and it is questionable if their software would offer enough edge over the free solution and I guess it would be the end of the line for their flight-sim product line (and maybe some others).

 

true competition would have many forms of hardware as many different options

 

I have Track IR 3 with VE which I bought used because I couldn't afford to pay the full price. Later, when I could afford to upgrade it to 4 or 5, I saw no point to it (just bought that trackclip thing) as it seemed to be just a refined TIR3 experience with all the same problems and ever growing price (I don't want to wear headphones with the clip or the cap with the reflectors). So, I think they were milking the community long enough with the same product and I'd rather use joystick hats then give them THAT MUCH money for the same thing.

 

nVidia, and AMD/ATI, and Intel, and Microsoft, and, and, and, and even game/sim developers are all similar... even Linux. Its called progress and genuine developers always have a genuine view to refine and improve their product... even your current headtracking alternates.

 

@ Druid...

 

I'm saddened you don't know what my stance is, your reply there says simply; you haven't read the thread through and went off half cocked.

Take care you don't get your beard caught in your bicycle's handlebars

Edited May 29, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Boberro]

well Facetrack still requires wearing one of those unnecessary and clunky reflector/ diode thingies.

 

No it doesn't require. Webcam with inbuilt IR diodes and cap with flash strips on it or you can mount them on the left\right side of headphones. The time of building IR leds and troubles with power source... this all has gone;]

[Druid_]

@ WR

 

I think we'd all like some proof that the various face-tracking products/freeware/shareware out there all hacked or ripped off NP. Provide proof and as I said, I am more than willing to admit I was wrong and change my mind accordingly. Until then .... (Fully cocked & loaded, do I need to add a smiley? Of course I've read the thread).

 

Why does true competition require Hardware to be true? let alone options. (here's a list of Hardware for you though)

 

edit: FTN is opensource, feel free to download it and compare it to NP source code, highlight the relevant sections & post back. I think NP would have already gone down this road though & no court action that I am aware of has taken place.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Druid_

[Wolf Rider]

@ Druid..

 

from page 1, this thread

 

We all want to use hack free products, that's pretty much why we are doing this. If ED listens to the petition then I am sure that's what we will get. If they do not change their stance however, the other head tracking software developers will always be forced to hack to access their only interface into the game.

 

how does anyone take people hiding behind internet anonymity to a real life court?

Edited May 29, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Druid_]

@ WR

 

well for one you get an injunction against the host website. Our doubt there are many people who are completely anonymous on the internet. Hackers to Peer-to-Peer providers have been succesfully prosecuted in the past & will continue to do so in the future. Many of the free face tracking providers do not hide but often provide names & contact details.

 

A single post in a large thread is your sole proof? I prefer to do my own research & not believe everything said on the News, in the Papers or on Forums before I commit to a stance. Have you done likewise? Like I said, the proof is in the code, its open source so download it and go from there.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Druid_

[Wolf Rider]

Ignoring the question? -still waiting? you've got to be kidding us, Druid

 

 

*Editz

 

I appreciate your editing your post there Druid (please ignore the above statement)... the quote was made by the same chap who organised "the petition"... he must know what he is talking about, eh? or do people just sign petitions, which may include incorrect information - or is the quote and petition information correct?

 

keep in mind, you can't have it both ways now ;)

Edited May 29, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Druid_]

Hacks do exist but only to tap into NP TIR monopolised games. FTN supports many games that aren't which might go some way to proving that it isn't using NP source code.

 

As has been explained in this thread, Hacks exist & I am not saying I support such Hacks but partly understand in some way why they are done.

 

To suppose therefore that face-tracking software, that does on some occasions get around NP to provide its freeware to over eager supportive users means its software is a complete Hack is short-sighted.

[Wolf Rider]

Then thank you Druid... you've answered your own question.

[Dudikoff]

Then thank you Druid... you've answered your own question.

 

But, that's the whole point to the petition - to provide an open interface so that people don't have to resort to using some sorts of hacks through the NP libraries to be able to use other products in the games they paid for. It's like if you had Windows 7 blocking the installation of any other browser other than Internet Explorer.

[EtherealN]

Small note regarding "hacks": please don't use the word carelessly. It can mean many different things.

 

One is the colloquial "hack" that is typically an illegal action. "Hacking a server" and so on.

Another is a "quick-and-dirty" solution to a software or hardware problem. "It works but it's a bit of a hack."

And finally you have a whole subculture of programmers. "Kernel hacker."

 

A hack in the sense of using other hardware might just be tweaking a piece of software that one has access to to make it "speak the language" of another interface that one doesn't have access to. This is in no way illegal. That said, I've never used anything but my TrackIR4 so I can't voice opinion of what is the actual fact for things like FreeTrack etcetera.

 

It's like if you had Windows 7 blocking the installation of any other browser other than Internet Explorer.

 

No it isn't. For Windows to do that requires extra code - you need to implement that as a specific feature. What we are talking about here is lacking support - that is, it just wasn't implemented. The difference is huge.

[Succellus]

If the question is just about ED team providing an opening for legitimate new trackers then i m all for it. If thats really the point then F**** NP. I love my TI5+TIP, but then, if they are blackmailing games to the point it would be like Thrustmaster not allowing CH or SAITEK to plug in, its pathetic.

[Korn]

Quick note for innocent users, just ignore WR, he's a known NP bot troll with many a time to spare :P and like a hundred similar posts in Cliffs of Dover forum just recently.

 

Natural Points makenting morons are guilty for this dumb tactics, in the end there will always be people willing to spend money on a hassle-free headtracking solution, but instead they resort to this illegal and immoral monopolistic tactic, just trying to bully out the competition. Tough luck, ain't gonna work, especially not with some big players coming in soon to a theatre near you :P.

 

The irony is a lot of people would buy TrackIR anyway (hell i would have) but they insist of being the big bad wolf, trying to kill all competition. I guess being an a*hole get's its reward in the end no matter what.

[Dudikoff]

Small note regarding "hacks": please don't use the word carelessly. It can mean many different things. the

A hack in the sense of using other hardware might just be tweaking a piece of software that one has access to to make it "speak the language" of another interface that one doesn't have access to. This is in no way illegal.

 

This is what it was referred to in the thread so I kept using it. I wanted to write something similar about it that it's not a code theft but more like a bypass, but actually, if it's it legal or not in this case I cannot say as I'm not familiar what the interface to the DCS sims for the view control looks like (maybe you know more about how it works exactly). Thus, if e.g. the ED directly uses NP libraries which they have a copyright on, it can be perfectly illegal to use them by some other software (e.g. I suppose this fixer does something like what I described and emulates a Track IR device to these libraries).

 

No it isn't. For Windows to do that requires extra code - you need to implement that as a specific feature. What we are talking about here is lacking support - that is, it just wasn't implemented. The difference is huge.

 

It was just a broad example, but if you want to be so detailed about it, if Microsoft wanted to pursue such an option, they would have that from the start; maybe by doing kernel in such a way that only MS applications (browser, email client, etc.) can get the internet access through the network interface, i.e. other such applications would not be supported.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Dudikoff

[sobek]

Quick note for innocent users, just ignore WR, he's a known NP bot troll with many a time to spare :P and like a hundred similar posts in Cliffs of Dover forum just recently.

 

Not commenting on whether the troll statement is justified towards said user, but you all know what the best remedy for trolls is. Just don't feed them. The ignore list/killfile is there for a reason. ;)

 

If you pay any attention, you have already made a mistake.

 

This thread started out as a sensible appeal. Shouldn't we get it back on track?

[Wolf Rider]

 

A hack in the sense of using other hardware might just be tweaking a piece of software that one has access to to make it "speak the language" of another interface that one doesn't have access to. This is in no way illegal.

 

 

That would depend if "access" and "tweak" was allowed by the software author though

 

 

Troll? :shocking: aww come on guys, lighten up... if I was batting on your team, it would be a completely different description being used

 

 

If the question is just about ED team providing an opening for legitimate new trackers then i m all for it. If thats really the point then F**** NP. I love my TI5+TIP, but then, if they are blackmailing games to the point it would be like Thrustmaster not allowing CH or SAITEK to plug in, its pathetic.

 

 

The bit with joysticks, is there is an Open Standard which they can use

Edited May 30, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[Succellus]

Isn t an open standart they are proposing.

If i read correctly what its happening NP is monopolizing the standart with their code, and other (i hope) "legitimate softwares" can t enter because they block the door, henceforth my comparison.

But if that not the case (blocking only the door to other legitimates means) and its just hacking then i m totally agaisnt it.

 

I wouldn t be surprised if NP is actually pissing its pants with kinect and the like. But then all they ve done all those years is better encoding again and again.

In tech market if you don t evolve and expand someone wil do it at your place.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Succellus

[Revvin]

E3 is looming and Microsoft will want to push their SDK for Kinect on PC. Microsoft can push their standard through DirectX so it could be just a matter of time before NaturalPoint dance to another's tune and instead of controlling the standard they have to compete alongside others on a level playing field and then whats to become of them? People never thought 3DFx would be toppled, they seemed to have the market sewn up with developers using their GLIDE API over Microsoft's Direct3D and we all know how that one turned out.

[WynnTTr]

E3 is looming and Microsoft will want to push their SDK for Kinect on PC. Microsoft can push their standard through DirectX so it could be just a matter of time before NaturalPoint dance to another's tune and instead of controlling the standard they have to compete alongside others on a level playing field and then whats to become of them? People never thought 3DFx would be toppled, they seemed to have the market sewn up with developers using their GLIDE API over Microsoft's Direct3D and we all know how that one turned out.

Somehow I doubt it.

 

TiR is a very specific product designed for a very specific market. Kinect is a specific product designed for a different market (general population for consoles). So unless MS decide to fully step into the PC head tracking sphere, Kinect will go along the path of all the other NP competitors, like Free/Face Track. Kinect will simply be nothing more than another alternative.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more competition here but let's face it - TiR presents a user friendly, works out of the box solution for those that can't be bothered with setting up and tweaking.

 

Lastly I most certainly don't want MS dominating this area of the PC market. NP has it's morally questionable policies (but seriously it's business) but I would infinitely choose them over a MS dominated market. You're just swapping a minor demon for the devil himself.

[Wolf Rider]

People never thought 3DFx would be toppled, they seemed to have the market sewn up with developers using their GLIDE API over Microsoft's Direct3D and we all know how that one turned out.

 

yes, 3DFX finally lost a patent suit brought by nVidia over the GPU pipeline after many various infringement suits between the two companies.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Wolf Rider

[sobek]

200 signatures, nice!

[jireland607]

Yes, 200 so far, thanks to everybody who has supported the petition. Anybody else who wished to sign:

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/Tracking/petition.html

[Revvin]

Somehow I doubt it.

 

TiR is a very specific product designed for a very specific market. Kinect is a specific product designed for a different market (general population for consoles). So unless MS decide to fully step into the PC head tracking sphere, Kinect will go along the path of all the other NP competitors, like Free/Face Track. Kinect will simply be nothing more than another alternative.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more competition here but let's face it - TiR presents a user friendly, works out of the box solution for those that can't be bothered with setting up and tweaking.

 

Lastly I most certainly don't want MS dominating this area of the PC market. NP has it's morally questionable policies (but seriously it's business) but I would infinitely choose them over a MS dominated market. You're just swapping a minor demon for the devil himself.

 

If this technology is incorporated into DirectX then they won't have a monopoly. They didn't freeze out other joystick manufacturers for instance when they were making their own joysticks and peripherals and their voice communications API became incorporated into DirectX also for anyone to use despite selling their own voice communication/control software and hardware solution for gamers. ASUS are also going to be showing off their WAVI Xmotion motion controller using technology from Primesense who were behind the Kinect's motion sensor. It may be early days for this kind of technology to find a standard as happened with DirectX but its surely a good thing for that to happen. This isn't just about head tracking for Microsoft or ASUS though, head tracking is just one feature available, the big selling point to your average consumer will be based around the idea of navigating through your computer like Tom Cruis in Minority Report.

 

yes, 3DFX finally lost a patent suit brought by nVidia over the GPU pipeline after many various infringement suits between the two companies.

 

Nice try to deflect but 3DFx were in trouble long before any patent suits. They tried to monopolise the market by switching from being a large OEM provider to alienating their customers by buying an established graphics card manufacturer to do it all themselves. On top of that they were running out of time as a new standard was set that was open to anyone and they had to try and compete on a level playing field. This may be true for NaturalPoint should Microsoft really push motion control and therefore head tracking as a feature of that motion control so the likes of Logitech, Saitek, ASUS or any other of a number of manufacturers can release their own hardware to work on a common API. This was why I suggested that NaturalPoint could become a software only provider as they are ahead of the game right now and have the know-how and expertise that other manufacturers are perhaps still trying to gather.

[Revvin]

Yes, 200 so far, thanks to everybody who has supported the petition. Anybody else who wished to sign:

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/Tracking/petition.html

 

I voted even though I'm a TrackIR user, I voted so that gamers may get a choice and perhaps we may even see some new innovation.