SA15 TOR

[Rdiehl3]

I was cruising along a multi-player mission on-line and I got a 15 in my RWR box. I have a quick reference SAM giude and saw max range 19,000ft other guids say 15,000ft well anyways I was flying at 26,000ft and was wacked by this evil doer. I was feeling assured that I was outa range of this SAM system. Well, it happened 2 times to me and I was up in arms. I was prolly 6-10 nm away and 26,000ft. I was lauching chaffs and had Jammer on but again thought I was outa range so was not doing eratic manuevers bc I was loaded and heavy and flying high. Any ideas on this>? I was thinking a bug? if not what the heck did i do wrong or not do.

 

Thanks in advance.:book:

[GGTharos]

I'm thinking you should stop ignoring missile launch warnings. That's the only bug here.

 

And if you're going to fly high, two mavs and four bombs and - gasp! - the surprise! Suddenly you can do stuff! ;)

[Sarge55]

Another reason could be the altitude of the SAM. If it's sitting on a ridge at 10,000' you are in range. Remember your altimeter is MSL. Oh, and what GG said....

[GGTharos]

Correct ... also while the SAM might be listed to have a certain ceiling, it is probably against somewhat zippier aircraft than an A-10 ... the slower you go, the easier to reach you become.

[Rdiehl3]

ok I checked the altitude of the airport the enemy was protecting with the SA15 it was 1050ft.

 

Im still at least 4-5,000ft above MAX ceiling of SA15

 

Anyhow, Ill take advice ...

Thanks for reply

[159th_Viper]

The SA-15's ceiling is somewhere roundabout 40 000ft......you were not out of range.

 

If you get spiked by the SA-15, extend and destroy it, alternatively avoid it: Do not ignore it and attempt to overfly it - you cannot.

[Rdiehl3]

VIPER thank you...40,000ft is what I wanted to hear. But now Im questioning the info I have trusted to be true. Any place where I can get correct SAM performace info?

[159th_Viper]

....Any place where I can get correct SAM performace info?

 

I have a feeling that the missile modelled In-SIM is the 9M332 which would accord with the ceiling at present and why you cannot overfly it.

 

As for data on actual performance, at present I cannot give you a link. I seem to recall finding it somewhere - I'll have a look again.

 

More definitive than the above however is the fact that we in the 159th are fortunate enough to have a member, Spetz (also a forum member here) who is currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces who has dealt with this first-hand and who has confirmed (without getting into specifics for obvious reasons) that you need to be at the very least 36 000ft+ ASL if you want to tangle with a Gauntlet.

[Rdiehl3]

That would be great if you could link it up if you can find. Thanks for the response and for the SA15 its no joke.

[BimC]

That would be great if you could link it up if you can find. Thanks for the response and for the SA15 its no joke.

 

Look out for Paulrkiii. He might have a updated defence guide on the way.

[Fish]

.......Thanks for the response and for the SA15 its no joke.

 

They are designed to take out fast highly maneueverable aircarft, including some cruise missiles. Our A10 does not even get close to that designation, so they are sitting ducks for the gaunlet. Unless its your job (usually its the SEAD), i would suggest you work your way around it, as soon as it shows up on your RWR, or loiter till the harm's or alarm's take it on.

 

Its got 8 missiles, so you if your prepared to go cat and mouse with it, and keep at the edge of its FCR radar, you might just evade the launches, remembering it can control multiple launches on at once, but missiles are command guided.

 

If you do get a launch warning, get eyes on on the smoke plume asap, and beam (since it uses pulse doppler), dropping chaff, but i guess its not gonna do you much good. If your close to the FCR envelope, put in on your six, and get out of dodge.

 

Hmm. I feel a movie comming on.....:music_whistling:

Edited July 22, 2011 by Fish

[mark35444]

Best technique for dealing with an SA-15 is as soon as it is detected on the RWR, put it on your 3/9 o'clock (beaming) and activate Jamming program 2 to break the lock. get some Distance from the source and keep jamming. Search for it with your TGP and once you have it Kill it off with a Maverick. Don't close within 5 miles. Golden rule with a 15 is as soon as it locks you up, Beam and Jam it. There simply isn't time to do anything else.

[WarriorX]

Here was one of my memorable encounters with the venerable SA-15 TOR:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=63517&highlight=SA15+shot+maverick

[sobek]

Golden rule with a 15 is as soon as it locks you up, Beam and Jam it.

 

Are you aware that jammers have only 2 main lobes, front and back? They don't do nothing for you if what you want to jam is on your 3/9 line.

[PhoenixBvo]

I doubt the developer of the AN/ALQ-131 (Westinghouse) really built such a handicap into their product. If so, then the next question would be whether that has been modelled in the sim?

[Frogfoot1606687865]

I doubt the developer of the AN/ALQ-131 (Westinghouse) really built such a handicap into their product. If so, then the next question would be whether that has been modelled in the sim?

 

I imagine it would be a design constraint, to get strong RF output you need a directional aerial to increase the gain, otherwise you would need a very powerfull transmitter to radiate omnidirectionaly and then this would cause all sorts of problems for the host aircraft.

[Eddie]

I doubt the developer of the AN/ALQ-131 (Westinghouse) really built such a handicap into their product. If so, then the next question would be whether that has been modelled in the sim?

 

Most ECM systems have this limitation. The AN/ALQ-131 and most other pods only have antenna arrays at the front and back, therefore they can only emit signals forward and rear of the aircraft.

 

Even modern aircraft with built in ESCM systems have the same limitation, the only way around it is to have additional antenna arrays on the 3/9 line. Which for the most part is considered unnessesary as you're going to have a threat either in front or behind you anway. IRL by the time you'd be looking at beaming a threat the ECM system wouldn't be doing much, if anything for you anyway.

[Stingray66]

Beaming has nothing to do with the Jammer... any aircraft can perform a beaming maneuver with or without jamming pod.

 

The beam maneuvre is performed to break the lock of Pulse Doppler radars.

 

A pulse Doppler radar uses the Doppler effect to lock on targets. As most of you probably know, the Doppler effect exists when two aircraft head towards each other, because of their speed. This is used to track the aircraft. Doppler effect seizes to exist when the aircraft being tracked stops (which doesn't happen in real life), but also when the flight path of the tracked aircraft is perpendicular (90 degrees) to the flight path of the aircraft using the pulse Doppler radar. This is the beam maneuvre: quickly go to perpendicular flight paths, breaking the lock of Doppler radars. And then moving back towards the enemy. Theoretically one can defeat the beam maneuvre by using a non-Doppler mode. But it is usually too late to do this. After the beam maneuvre the aircraft will have to be locked on again, which takes time. By performing several beaming maneuvres, one can get closer to the enemy at each turn.

 

It simply plays a trick on some (not all) radars. Usually fighters are more susceptible to doppler notch than ground stations. Indeed, you should not beam the missile but rather the radar that homes the missile unless the missile uses its own radar.

 

Jamming interferes with the radar lock, but makes you also more visible for the enemy - although they cannot lock you that know you are there since the jamming pod emits energy. I am just curious whether there are SAM systems out there that use the HOJ (home on jam) function as well...

 

To conclude: Beaming is rarely a bad choice but if you do not know anything about the missile just get your a... out there.

 

And I have to agree: Once you have a missile running towards you, then there is no doubt: You indeed were in range for that missile to catch you - especially with an A10 you can forget about dotching so just get away.

[Eddie]

You're thinking of the doppler notch Stingray, beaming is not the same thing and it doesn't have the same effect. Simply flying a steady course 90 degress to the threat radar source will have no detrimental effect on dopper radar systems.

 

Beaming will primarily defeat a threat missile by causing it to run out of energy prior to impact, as you are no longer closing on the launch platform as you were at the point of launch. This obviously means trying to beam as missile fired at you when you are inside the NEZ is a very bad idea.

[PhoenixBvo]

OK, thanks for your insightful answers. So, is this directional ECM signal strength modelled in the sim?

[Eddie]

OK, thanks for your insightful answers. So, is this directional ECM signal strength modelled in the sim?

 

Trying to find that out at the moment, honestly haven't thought about it before.

[Stingray66]

You're thinking of the doppler notch Stingray, beaming is not the same thing and it doesn't have the same effect. Simply flying a steady course 90 degress to the threat radar source will have no detrimental effect on dopper radar systems.

 

Doppler notch maneuver IS flying perpendicular to the radar source (i.e. beaming) such that the radar loses the track. Actually, it does not lose that track; it just ignores you as you seem to be immobile and will be filtered as ground clutter. You could circumvent this by employing a different radar mode but the effect (=lose the track for a very short time) will be the same. And basically thats all you need!

 

Beaming will primarily defeat a threat missile by causing it to run out of energy prior to impact, as you are no longer closing on the launch platform as you were at the point of launch. This obviously means trying to beam as missile fired at you when you are inside the NEZ is a very bad idea.

 

 

Not quite. If I want the missile to run out, I would be flying straight away with the missile at my 6 (which is actually very effective yet not in an A10 ;)). Beaming is keeping the target at your 3/9. This enables you to no longer fly directly towards a target while keeping your own radar locked onto it. Further, it brings you in a perfect position for dodging a missile.

 

Both points are meaningless in the A10. However, as for the reasons stated above, beaming makes sense especially in the NEZ. As per definition, flying away would definitely NOT do the thing once you are in the NEZ. So you should do anything to distract the missile OR the homing system, i.e. chaffs, jammer (discussed above very well), beaming(!).

 

Yet, I do not know how SAM systems are implemented in the software, but usually they should send you a missile way before you enter the NEZ.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Stingray66

[Eddie]

Doppler notch maneuver IS flying perpendicular to the radar source (i.e. beaming) such that the radar loses the track. Actually, it does not lose that track; it just ignores you as you seem to be immobile and will be filtered as ground clutter. You could circumvent this by employing a different radar mode but the effect (=lose the track for a very short time) will be the same. And basically thats all you need!

 

Not quite, beaming would be turning 90 degress to the threat, putting the threat on your 3/9 line and then continuing on course, normally using vertical maneuvers to bleed the missiles energy. It is most certainly an energy bleeding maneuver.

 

The Doppler notch requires putting the threat on the 3/9 line and holding it there, you will need to turn the aircraft to maintain the 3/9 line.

 

Both outwardly similar maneuvers with subtle but very important differences. And there is not point trying a dopper notch in the hog, you're just not fast enough to pull it off successfully.

 

Not quite. If I want the missile to run out, I would be flying straight away with the missile at my 6 (which is actually very effective yet not in an A10 ;)). Beaming is keeping the target at your 3/9. This enables you to no longer fly directly towards a target while keeping your own radar locked onto it. Further, it brings you in a perfect position for dodging a missile.

 

That would be dragging, you are correct that this is also used to defeat a threat by causing it to bleed it's energy before it gets to you. It can obviously be more effective in some cases than beaming, BUT is has the disadvantage that you will be sperating from the threat and target area by a greater distance than you would by beaming. You also loose sight of the threat and can suffer SA degradation in the process. In the hog dragging may well be the better tactic most of the time, but in a fighter, especially in the air to air role this is quite often not the case.

 

Both points are meaningless in the A10. However, as for the reasons stated above, beaming makes sense especially in the NEZ. As per definition, flying away would definitely NOT do the thing once you are in the NEZ. I do not know how SAM systems are implemented in the software, but usually they should send you a missile way before you enter the NEZ.

 

Oh and the doppler notch isn't a good tactic against a fixed, non moving, SAM unit. ;)

[159th_Viper]

Doppler notch maneuver IS flying perpendicular to the radar source (i.e. beaming) such that the radar loses the track....

 

And yet Eddie is correct: Doppler Notch manoeuvre is not the same as Beaming. In any event, I would have thought that Doppler Notch as regards A-10C vs SAM is about as uselessas a Condom in a Convent as what Ground Clutter returns is a SAM getting in any event painting an aircraft at Angels 12?

 

 

Yet, I do not know how SAM systems are implemented in the software, but usually they should send you a missile way before you enter the NEZ

 

Why?

 

I would have thought that they'd launch once they know you cannot escape - why waste a launch on a target that will evade?

[GGTharos]

Nope. Beaming the emitter is beaming the emitter - ie. putting it on the 3-9 line. Beaming is a necessary but not sufficient condition to notch. Notching requires you to be in the clutter (usually forcing the emitter into look-down) such that doppler filtering becomes necessary ... so you beam into the notch.

 

You don't notch just by beaming.

 

Doppler notch maneuver IS flying perpendicular to the radar source (i.e. beaming) such that the radar loses the track. Actually, it does not lose that track; it just ignores you as you seem to be immobile and will be filtered as ground clutter. You could circumvent this by employing a different radar mode but the effect (=lose the track for a very short time) will be the same. And basically thats all you need!

 

 

 

Not quite. If I want the missile to run out, I would be flying straight away with the missile at my 6 (which is actually very effective yet not in an A10 ;)). Beaming is keeping the target at your 3/9. This enables you to no longer fly directly towards a target while keeping your own radar locked onto it. Further, it brings you in a perfect position for dodging a missile.

 

Beaming helps with making the missile run out. Your radar won't be looking at any targets that are on your 3/9, assuming you have one anyway.

 

Both points are meaningless in the A10. However, as for the reasons stated above, beaming makes sense especially in the NEZ. As per definition, flying away would definitely NOT do the thing once you are in the NEZ. So you should do anything to distract the missile OR the homing system, i.e. chaffs, jammer (discussed above very well), beaming(!).

 

Beaming makes no sense in the NEZ in terms of kinematic escape: You're in the NEZ. It only makes sense for setting you up with better performance from your countermeasures - you're not going to be notching SAMs like that. Beaming won't distract the homing system - beaming with CMs might, but once you're inside the NEZ of a modern SAM, you're in pretty big trouble.

 

Yet, I do not know how SAM systems are implemented in the software, but usually they should send you a missile way before you enter the NEZ.

 

In DCS they do so, for now ... but they'll get smarter and wait for you to be in the NEZ one of these days.