Question: real life fighter cockpit operation - haptic vs. visual

[Alex_rcpilot]

After looking through cockpit photographs of numerous real life fighter jets, I can't help wondering how the designs have been put to practice.

 

It looks pretty obvious that in places of highly populated instrument panels, fences and other protruding structures are located between buttons or switches.

 

Some of the structures are built to prevent false inputs, a good example will be a toggle switch with a locking detent which only disengages when the pilot pulls out its control rod. In cases where the pilot inadvertently slams his finger on some of these toggles, they'd remain still.

 

But others seem more helpful to pilots when it comes to locating a desired component, rather than protecting undesired ones. The "5" button on the CDU numberpad of A-10C for example, protrudes a little higher than the rest. This would probably help the pilot speed up numeric inputs just like a home PC keyboard does with its numberpad.

 

Is it also appropriate to assume, that a pilot can find most pushbuttons, toggle switches, dials etc. only by touching, just like what he does with a HOTAS system?

 

I'm asking this because the pilot's vision is heavily occupied by the exterior view during an intense air combat. Taking his sight off the target or whatever important external reference, and using it to visually locate a button inside of the cockpit may cause him to lose his situation awareness, even his life.

 

Maybe most of the vital functionalities have been programmed into the HOTAS, but is there still anything left over that requires extra attention? Do pilots sometimes choose haptics over vision for instrument inputs? If they can, are they allowed to do that?

Edited September 18, 2011 by Alex_rcpilot

[aaron886]

This is such a broad and unguided question I'm really not sure what you're asking. The pilot can't "choose" whether or not the controls provide haptic feedback...?

[Ragtop]

You pretty much answered your own question.

 

Yes, a large amount of the cockpit will be designed in such a way that the pilot has his most crucial instruments located as close as possible to his line of sight, and if they are out of his LOS, they will be designed so that you can operate them based on feel.

 

I don't know what else you're really asking...

[Cali]

I know F-15 pilots have to learn the feel of buttons and know what each one does.

[cichlidfan]

Notice how different the buttons on the side of the A-10C throttle are. It is apparent that specific choices were made to make it virtually impossible not to know which button you are on (of course we have the advantage of not wearing gloves). The gloves would be another reason to take steps to minimize accidental switch flipping

 

I would imagine that designs are adjusted as much as possible to make it easier for the pilot to keep his eyes out of the pit.

[Alex_rcpilot]

This is such a broad and unguided question I'm really not sure what you're asking. The pilot can't "choose" whether or not the controls provide haptic feedback...?

 

Sorry, I must misled you into thinking somthing fancy by using the word "haptics".

 

I didn't mean to imply that haptic feedback technology was used inside a cockpit, such stuff fits some cellular devices pretty well though. I just meant the sense of touch.

[Alex_rcpilot]

You pretty much answered your own question.

 

Yes, a large amount of the cockpit will be designed in such a way that the pilot has his most crucial instruments located as close as possible to his line of sight, and if they are out of his LOS, they will be designed so that you can operate them based on feel.

 

I don't know what else you're really asking...

 

I made a whole bunch of speculations only based on reasoning when I wrote this poorly organized thread. The point is just to prove or disprove whatever I wrote there with the help of people who have the knowledge of real fighter aircraft.

 

No matter how reasonable a speculation is, it doesn't stand upright until proved. Thanks for your information.

[Alex_rcpilot]

I know F-15 pilots have to learn the feel of buttons and know what each one does.

 

This info helps, thanks Cali.

 

Yesterday I phoned a friend who spoke to a commercial pilot, and he told me that commercial pilots are required to look before touching. However, such guidelines are not strictly enforced during routine practice.

 

Commercial pilots focus on safety, and don't concentrate their sight outside of the cockpit as much as fighter pilots. I think that's why the guidlines emphasize looking at the controls.

 

The pilot whom my friend spoke to knows how to feel the position of flaps lever, and he's used to setting flaps' position without looking at the unit during most landings.

[aaron886]

Sorry, I must misled you into thinking somthing fancy by using the word "haptics"... I just meant the sense of touch.

 

Nope, that's how I interpreted it. (Because that's what haptics refers to.)

 

You pretty much answered your own question.

 

This. It wasn't so much a question as a statement with a question mark at the end. :smilewink:

[Alex_rcpilot]

Notice how different the buttons on the side of the A-10C throttle are. It is apparent that specific choices were made to make it virtually impossible not to know which button you are on (of course we have the advantage of not wearing gloves). The gloves would be another reason to take steps to minimize accidental switch flipping

 

I would imagine that designs are adjusted as much as possible to make it easier for the pilot to keep his eyes out of the pit.

 

Yes, those signs are essentially what led me to wonder about real pilots. You reminded me of those gloves, I don't know how thick they are, but they certainly disturb the perfect sense of touch on bare hands.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Nope, that's how I interpreted it. (Because that's what haptics refers to.)

Ah....forgive me then, as I didn't figure out this part in the first place.

 

 

This. It wasn't so much a question as a statement with a question mark at the end. :smilewink:

Well, that does look wrong, actually I changed the title more than 3 times to find a shortest one that fits the content. The initial "Question:" wasn't there originally, I put it there seconds before submitting because I didn't want readers to feel like I was introducing a piece of new technology before entering the thread. I admit that I've made a terribly organized thread with questions mixed with speculations. I hope things will start to make sense as the replies develope.:D

[Cali]

This info helps, thanks Cali.

 

Yesterday I phoned a friend who spoke to a commercial pilot, and he told me that commercial pilots are required to look before touching. However, such guidelines are not strictly enforced during routine practice.

 

Commercial pilots focus on safety, and don't concentrate their sight outside of the cockpit as much as fighter pilots. I think that's why the guidlines emphasize looking at the controls.

 

The pilot whom my friend spoke to knows how to feel the position of flaps lever, and he's used to setting flaps' position without looking at the unit during most landings.

 

Fighter pilots fly a lot so they know where and what the buttons/switches and knobs do and feel like. That is their life and the lives of others they are dealing with. During the fight everything inside the pit should be already done. The only thing they should have to worry about is looking outside the pit trying to find the bandit or staying with their lead. The HOTAS does everything else after that. During a fight I would hate to try to look for or push a button/switch while pulling 4-8g's.....lose sight, lose the fight.

 

That's another reason why I changed my HOTAS set-up. I use to have 3 different modes NAV/A2A and A2G, now I only have 1. If I'm running in on a bomb attack I should have everything set up and shoudn't need to fumble around my keyboard or remember what button did what on my HOTAS.

[Yurgon]

Allow me to quote from Ed Macy's fantastic book "Apache":

A bank of controls and instruments faced me: buttons, switches and knobs of every shape and size - 227 in total, and every one designed to feel different so you could recognise them in the dark.

So, yes, in the Apache I'm pretty certain that pilots can fly the aircraft in complete darkness without looking at any control inside the cockpit.

 

In the F-16, on the other hand, lots of buttons, switches and knobs look very much alike as far as I can tell from Falcon 4/BMS, so I simply don't know whether or not pilots are allowed or even supposed to operate them without looking (other than the HOTAS, obviously).

[nscode]

Once you get your first live SAM/AAM flying at you, it doesn't matter - you will forget everything except moving the stick.

[AlphaOneSix]

So, yes, in the Apache I'm pretty certain that pilots can fly the aircraft in complete darkness without looking at any control inside the cockpit.

 

Ed Macy's writing kind of trips me out. I enjoy reading his stories, but having worked on Apaches for several years, his level of embellishment is almost disturbing, and certainly a bit annoying. The reason every switch is different is because they are in different places. Most of them are identical. That being said, there is a switchology trainer for the aircraft designed specifically to train pilots to learn to do most functions while heads down (which is kind of out of style now that there you can't really go heads down in the newer Apaches, on account of the ORT being removed).

[aaron886]

Once you get your first live SAM/AAM flying at you, it doesn't matter - you will forget everything except moving the stick.

 

Had a lot of SAMs fired at you to cement that experience? :music_whistling:

[59th_LeFty]

I know F-15 pilots have to learn the feel of buttons and know what each one does.

 

Same with the Gripens, to get +1. Oxygen valves are blocking visual on few instruments. In simulators, many times its an advantage that you are "not" in the cockpit :)

[Alex_rcpilot]

Fighter pilots fly a lot so they know where and what the buttons/switches and knobs do and feel like. That is their life and the lives of others they are dealing with. During the fight everything inside the pit should be already done. The only thing they should have to worry about is looking outside the pit trying to find the bandit or staying with their lead. The HOTAS does everything else after that. During a fight I would hate to try to look for or push a button/switch while pulling 4-8g's.....lose sight, lose the fight.

 

That's another reason why I changed my HOTAS set-up. I use to have 3 different modes NAV/A2A and A2G, now I only have 1. If I'm running in on a bomb attack I should have everything set up and shoudn't need to fumble around my keyboard or remember what button did what on my HOTAS.

 

I kinda wonder how well a pilot can plan his sortie by programming the HOTAS so properly that he won't need to reach for anything else when situation gets hot. If it's really not such a big deal to achieve, then perhaps his sense of touch doesn't require much training?

[Alex_rcpilot]

Ed Macy's writing kind of trips me out. I enjoy reading his stories, but having worked on Apaches for several years, his level of embellishment is almost disturbing, and certainly a bit annoying. The reason every switch is different is because they are in different places. Most of them are identical. That being said, there is a switchology trainer for the aircraft designed specifically to train pilots to learn to do most functions while heads down (which is kind of out of style now that there you can't really go heads down in the newer Apaches, on account of the ORT being removed).

 

Oh wow, I've never read that book, but I enjoyed this discussion here. I wonder how the head mounted sight would affect pilot operation, I mean the mini display gear mounted on the helmet. I presume when the pilot rolls into action with this device, he isn't supposed to touch anything besides the collective and stick units?

[Alex_rcpilot]

Once you get your first live SAM/AAM flying at you, it doesn't matter - you will forget everything except moving the stick.

 

How about chaff and flare dispenser? :D

[Cali]

I kinda wonder how well a pilot can plan his sortie by programming the HOTAS so properly that he won't need to reach for anything else when situation gets hot. If it's really not such a big deal to achieve, then perhaps his sense of touch doesn't require much training?

 

Are you talking about in FC2 or in real life, I'm assuming real life? In real life they just have to learn what the different buttons on the HOTAS do, they can't change that like we can in FC2 or any other game. The reason they have to know what the button feels like is because they don't want to forget and be fumbling around trying to find the right one. If they want to go into bore and select to jett their weapons......that wouldn't be good now would it? That was just an example, but you get my point. There are times I forget what buttons do what on my HOTAS, and yes, that has gotten me killed a few times. But all I have to do is hit refly, they don't have that option.

[hassata]

Ed Macy's writing kind of trips me out

Reading his book now, kind of underwhelmed. He goes onto head mounted sight a good bit. That part is eye-opening, no pun intended.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Are you talking about in FC2 or in real life, I'm assuming real life? In real life they just have to learn what the different buttons on the HOTAS do, they can't change that like we can in FC2 or any other game. The reason they have to know what the button feels like is because they don't want to forget and be fumbling around trying to find the right one. If they want to go into bore and select to jett their weapons......that wouldn't be good now would it? That was just an example, but you get my point. There are times I forget what buttons do what on my HOTAS, and yes, that has gotten me killed a few times. But all I have to do is hit refly, they don't have that option.

 

Yes I was talking about real life, didn't know real life HOTAS was dead fixed. The point of my doubt in reply #18 is actually about how well the HOTAS does its job by its very definition. If it proves perfect, then perhaps the pilot does have time to glance before reaching out elsewhere, because the hot situation either hasn't started or is already over.

[aaron886]

Honestly Alex it's a non-issue... fighter pilots are professional pilots, which means they get very good at what they do. They get to know their equipment very intimately. I guarantee you no matter what aircraft they fly and no matter how it's equipped, any decent fighter pilot could find every switch in the cockpit in a heartbeat.

[Eddie]

It's all about muscle memory.