Pulling hair with the trim system

[adam12]

I've read the manual and even some other articles on the trim system. I've searched through other posts on this forum regarding the trim system.

 

I understand that you get your helicopter into a desired attitude and then press the trim button.

 

Then if you use "Central Position Trimming" you return the *joystic* to the central position and the new trim settings engage.

 

If you aren't using central trimming option, you press the trim button and then there is a fixed amount of time before the trim settings kick in, after which you can centre your joystick.

 

Trim includes "rudder" input.

 

If you have the autopilot on altitude hold, you press "F" at your desired altitude and that tells the system what to aim for.

 

If I'm missing anything above, please let me know. For example, I've not read anything about having to *hold down* the trim button, make adjustments, and then release the button. So I have to assume that is not the correct way to do things.

 

What I'm seeing in the game:

 

The helicopter trims the "rudder", but the bank and pitch does nothing. When I release the stick, the helo pitches up sharply at angles up to 50 degrees.

 

I also don't see the collective moving up or down -- and the helo seems unable to keep a radar altitude at all.

 

Put in other words -- if I have a nice stable hover going, and I press "trim" and "F", and then release my joystick slowly to it's central positions, the helicopter does not adopt anything *remotely* like the attitude I had it in when I pressed the trim and F buttons. Almost always it pitches up, and I continue to have to hold my joystick forward from centre to prevent the helo from adopting a dangerous up-pitch. This holds true whether I enter in a hover or I am trimming for normal flight.

 

I have the Route/Descent switch to neutral. I haven't even touched the AP system at all. At this point, I'm just interested in how to figure out the trim. It's exceedingly difficult to operate the optics/weapons while also simultaneously fighting the pitching tendencies of the helo.

 

Incidentally, without using the auto-hover, has anyone consistently achieved a stable hover using just the trim? (No AP/Damper.)

 

Share with me your trimming wisdom, oh ye veterans of BS.:helpsmilie:

Edited October 1, 2011 by adam12

[adam12]

I have uploaded a demonstration of the problem. Once the file is checked out you will be able to download it at http://files.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/110089/

 

The file is now available.

Edited October 4, 2011 by adam12
The file is now available.

[adam12]

I think I know what is going on...

 

My joystick is a Logitech Force3d. It sucks, horribly. Consequently, all forcefeedback in the game settings are set to zero, including trimmer force. (Even with it turned on, the joystick doesn't respond at all with force feedback. This is a universal problem with this stick.)

 

I think BS is reading my joystick driver and noticing it's a forcefeedback stick, and automatically implementing the forcefeedback method of trim which holds your joystick in position with the motor gears in the stick.

 

Alright, so how do I tell Blackshark that this *isn't* a forcefeedback stick (as is.)

[JG14_Smil]

For example, I've not read anything about having to *hold down* the trim button, make adjustments, and then release the button. So I have to assume that is not the correct way to do things.

 

 

This is really my favorite way to fly the Shark: push and hold button until helo is doing what you want, then release and center the controls. I use the original trimming method. Editing response curves in the options is very helpful. Never, ever use cancel trim button in flight.

Edited October 1, 2011 by JG14_Smil

[Frazer]

Alright, so how do I tell Blackshark that this *isn't* a forcefeedback stick (as is.)

This might help:

Ka-50\Config\Producer.cfg (open with notepad (notepad++ prefered))

Change true to false

ForceFeedbackEnabled = false;

 

I never had a FFB stick so i'm not sure this really works, but worth to try out.

[CharlieMike24]

"Centre trim" - returns the trim settings to the default. I dont use it. To trim you should press and hold the trim key whilst positioning the joystick so its in stable flight. At this point release the trim key and let the joystick recentre. The aircraft should maintain the stable trimmed flight with no input to the joystick. This is how it works for me anyway :)

[bogusheadbox]

Horses for courses, use the trimming method you are comfortable with.

 

I don't use the hold trim button method. I use the same method in game as i do with a real aircraft.

 

Select (desired attitude)

Hold (desired attitude - only for a very short time to stop oscilations of craft)

Trim (and trim constantly for any power, pitch or heading change)

 

Works a treat for me. But that is me.

 

-----------------------------

 

As something totally different, i know a few people when starting to learn the KA would trim intially for the hover and leave it at that. They would just work the stick for forward flight leaving the aircraft trimmed for hover when they needed to stop so there is no messing about with the trimmer. Worked great for them. I don't do it, but its just a point that you need to do what feels right for you and works for you.

Edited October 1, 2011 by bogusheadbox

[CharlieMike24]

True, one can use other ways. It seems that helicopter trimming is not the same as fixed wings. See this thread.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=77728&highlight=trim

 

Edit: although Wags says that its not necessary to hold down trim during maneuvering (its only activated at key release) I find that it makes it more of a conscious, controlled activity. Anyway, hope this helps.

Edited October 1, 2011 by CharlieMike24
further explanation

[jib]

i used to use the logitech 3d pro with force feedback on (with it toned down slightly), before i upgraded to the logitech G940.

it is the most reilistic way to fly. there is a bug that means you have to send repeated keystrokes of the trim key so that it releases the force feedback (i cant remember if it effects the 3d pro or just the G940) but maybe this is where your problems are coming from. just a thought. but force feedback is the way it works in the real chopper and you dont have to worry about this centering nonsense.

[adam12]

I'll have some time to fiddle with it tonight, but for now just want to say that there IS a completely valid reason to hold the trim button down while you position. It disengages the dampers.

 

Since I've not even touched the AP/Damper system yet (having not mastered trimming) I haven't yet used that method, but in those situations it's the only way to go, save disengaging the AP and then flicking it back on again. (more work.)

[bogusheadbox]

It seems that helicopter trimming is not the same as fixed wings. .

 

The mechanism for trimming may be different but what its trying to achieve is exactly the same.

[power5]

True, one can use other ways. It seems that helicopter trimming is not the same as fixed wings. See this thread.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=77728&highlight=trim

 

Edit: although Wags says that its not necessary to hold down trim during maneuvering (its only activated at key release) I find that it makes it more of a conscious, controlled activity. Anyway, hope this helps.

 

Was wags talking about a FFB stick or non FFB? When I press the button my stick disengages and I feel pressure. If I use a keyboard key for trim as it in default, when I press that key my stick snaps back to center. My trim button is the pinky on my G940. I hold till attitude is correct then release and the chopper stays close to that position. My move a bit due to the stick not being held vice tight. If I do not hold trim while maneuvering I have to fight the AP. Then when I press the trim button the chopper lurches a bit. Smoothest way is to hold the trim button till done making changes then release. I have my FFB settings on my G940 at about 30%.

Holding trim button does not disengage the dampers though. If it was a real helo I am not even sure you would be able to move the stick without holding the trim. Pressing trim in the game is the same concept. It basically unlocks the position of the stick. Without pressing trim you are basically fighting the aircraft.

[StarHopper]

Horses for courses, use the trimming method you are comfortable with.

 

I don't use the hold trim button method. I use the same method in game as i do with a real aircraft.

 

Select (desired attitude)

Hold (desired attitude - only for a very short time to stop oscilations of craft)

Trim (and trim constantly for any power, pitch or heading change)

 

Works a treat for me. But that is me.

 

 

Thats what I do. You've got to wait for the aircraft to become stable then hit trim and wait. If its off, wait and stabilize, then trim again. Over and over, till its stable and exactly what you want. If just takes patience, practice, and time.

[adam12]

i used to use the logitech 3d pro with force feedback on (with it toned down slightly), before i upgraded to the logitech G940.

it is the most reilistic way to fly. there is a bug that means you have to send repeated keystrokes of the trim key so that it releases the force feedback (i cant remember if it effects the 3d pro or just the G940) but maybe this is where your problems are coming from. just a thought. but force feedback is the way it works in the real chopper and you dont have to worry about this centering nonsense.

 

I didn't realize the FF even worked with this game. I had so many problems with oscillations (the joystick is really a hunk of crap in terms of quality) that I looked up on the net about the stick and was told to disengage FF entirely. Something about the Logi Profiler doubling the FF.

 

I'm glad I turned it back on again. Things are working fine, I just don't use the stick shake.

 

On to the autopilot :smartass:

[power5]

Bs only uses ffb for trim to keep stick in position, there is no stick shake.

[adam12]

Bs only uses ffb for trim to keep stick in position, there is no stick shake.

 

There is a second force feedback option, under trimmer forces. That's what I'm talking about.

 

And when you use this bloody joystick, anything can happen. :)

[adam12]

Holding trim button does not disengage the dampers though.

 

Cool, through this I also learned that the autopilot isn't just a damper system. Good catch!

[StarHopper]

Nope, if you want just dampers, hit the Free Flight button.

[WildBillKelsoe]

greetings...

 

basically, if your joystick dont have force feedback, and can therefore not maintain the trim system, like X52, T-flight Hotas X, etc... you can set the central position trimmer mode.

 

What it does: makes the joystick trimmed to calibrated axis meaning --> you dont need to trim. If you do trim however, you wont experience the jitters of having to correct the trim if reset in the non -central position option (nose up reaction), when you reset, the trimmer is set to the center point. No over/under correction necessary.

 

 

The Ka is a bitch or a bull you're fighting to steady..

 

Another thing:

 

Trimmer works by holding the trimmer THEN setting the aircraft to desired attitude, THEN released.

 

Press and hold trimmer --> splice the helo --> let go the trimmer--> she's on her own...

[MTFDarkEagle]

In other words:

 

Stick is at position A (hands off)

Press and hold trimmer

Move stick to position B

Release trimmer

B becomes the hands off position.

 

That's how it works with FFB. Without, you have to move your actual joystick (i.e. your wh, x52, whatever) to the central position, but position B is still the new calibrated position for the cyclic.

[adam12]

The more I get to know this the less I think it should be called a trim system at all. I know that it works to the same end as the trimmer on a fixed wing aircraft, but just from a psychological standpoint to avoid confusion it would be better if the comparison was never even made.

 

But I get it finally :)

 

I'm not sure how the collective / altitude hold works. Press collective brake (F by default) to set altitude but what does this do between the collective in-game and your flight stick? I notice I still have full control over power. Is it a 20% limit? I don't see anything on the mechanics of the thing in the manual but I swear I gave it a good check.

Edited October 11, 2011 by adam12

[StarHopper]

Yeah, I think Altitude hold is like the rest. It has a 20% limit.

[EtherealN]

Depends really, adam - some fixed-wings I fly IRL trim on the same principle; they manipulate stick centre-point rather than trim tabs.

[adam12]

Right - that's what it is! Stick usually comes last in the series of events (even hydraulic or electrical feedback comes from the control surface right?) but here it comes first.

 

So in a way the KA-50 trim system works is like putting "The Club" on the cyclic? :D

 

Which planes btw? That's interesting

Edited October 11, 2011 by adam12

[adam12]

Yeah, I think Altitude hold is like the rest. It has a 20% limit.

 

To add:

 

It looks like this works by pitching up the helicopter when you loose altitude and down when you gain it.

 

 

 

 

 

Does the altitude hold go through the engine controls or collective pitch at all?