How to I disable the gremlin in the cockpit??

[-Ice]

Hey guys. Just re-discovering my helo roots, I've flown EECH and Gunship! years ago and finally gave in with BS2.

 

I am learning about the trim and the autopilot, but have a few quick questions.

 

1. I am flying with a TM Warthog and I've mapped the trim to the Nose Down on the hat switch. I know I have to set the pitch, then flick the trim so that the helo holds that trim. But how do I "reset" trim if I've changed the flight path of the helo? I read/hear instructions about pressing and holding the trim button, adjusting the helo, then releasing the trim button, while other instructions say adjust helo then flick the trim on again. Which is it?

 

2. Auto-hover -- this one is mapped to the pinky switch. It is my understanding that flicking this on will put the aircraft on hover, and the closer I am to zero airspeed, the better the helo will hold the hover. I'm just confused since sometimes when I engage the hover, it pitches the helo backwards so much I spin and crash.

 

3. Yaw -- sometimes I am lucky and the helo behaves itself. I can get to the target area, engage hover..... then the helo just starts rotating and faces the other way. Even if I re-trim to face the direction I want, it still slowly-but-surely rotates to face a different direction. Also does this with hover engaged. What am I missing here?

 

4. Vikhr -- what's the max range of this one? Encyclopedia says 10km, but I've not yet been able to launch from more than 3km. What ranges do you usually fire from?

 

 

Thanks!

[Nate--IRL--]

1 Personally I use the Flight Director - not correct supposedly - but I prefer it.

 

2 Ka-50 does not have Auto-Hover. It has Hover Hold, an important distinction. This mode really really does not like Wind. Also if your Doppler system is not ready, engaging the Hover hold will disengage all the autopilot stabilisation channels - helpful huh?

 

3 Switch to desired heading from Desired track (see 2 switches beside autopilot buttons)

 

4 Most I've ever managed is 9.5 km from high alt.

 

Nate

[-Ice]

Thanks Nate...

 

1. Flight director sounds... familiar. Still learning this sim.

 

2. Sorry, I meant Hover hold. Doppler system, I'll have to look into that. But I am flying a custom training mission with no wind. If this system does work, does this mean I can just raise/lower the collective for a "pop up" maneuver?

 

3. Thanks for that.

 

4. About how high up?

[EtherealN]

2 - Yes, you can do that, but be VERY careful when dropping the collective. You can very easily put yourself into a vortex ring state if you let your descent from the popup get too fast, and then you will probably hit the ground since the maneuver is likely from low altitude. (Escape maneuver for Vortex Ring State is to gain speed, but you won't have time if you're low.)

 

4 - I'd say a kilometer or so. Even if you are really down low, you should have no problem with 7km.

[Pit_Toyuwo]

I use flight director for rocket runs, landing and pure flying, aside of that I disable it since it overrides everything automated such as auto hover, route mode and auto turn. Happy to know I am not the only one using this, I find the auto pilot somewhat annoying sometimes.

 

About auto hover, it works ok, however you must bear this in mind:

 

1) With flight director mode, auto hover doesn't work, period.

 

2) Auto hover tries to keep over a point on the ground, when engaged the trim button just resets the point to the one currently under the chopper.

 

3) MOST IMPORTANTLY: IF the INU or RADAR ALTIMETER fails for WHATEVER REASON, all auto pilot functions will turn off in auto hover. The reasons for such failures may be electric shortage. IF your throttle is not set to AUTO the turbine won't provide enough electricity to the systems and some functions will fail, the easy way to tell if that's the case, the speed meter on the HUD will lack some information, such as the tick for overspeed and the SPEED indicated with a number above the bar. Second if the rpm is too low, the generator will not provide enough electricity. If the chopper is nose up (like when slowing down) and you engage the auto hover you may get an upleasant surprise.

 

4) If you engage auto hover below 4 meters or try to land with it, you will most certainly get flowers on your coffin as it will shut down auto pilot channels.

 

If you turn on manual mode for the targeting computer (lower center panel, left swicth) you can fire from very far away, I have been able to destroy something not moving from 12 KMs if I remember well but most of the time you will miss.

[EtherealN]

One number 1, I'd recommend using the pinky as your trimmer button. (That's where it is in the real thing, as well.) This makes it easier to use whichever method you want. The difference is that while the button is depressed, the AP-channels will cease excerting their 20% authority. I find that during lazy turns this helps me.

 

Typically, I when I do a minor adjustment, I just klick the trimmer afterwards. When I perform a longer-duration planned maneuver, I hold the trimmer until done. (It reads the new attitude "order" when released.)

 

There is a Trim Reset command, which I have set up through assigning one of the throttle buttons as a modifier key in the options (you can order the simulator to interpret anything you like as if it was a "shift" or "control" through entering the "modifiers" box in control mappings), and the pinky button. Thus I get all the trim commands right in there on a single button in a logical manner.

 

I'm not sure where I mapped my hover hold actually, I barely ever use it, but I think it was the paddle on the stick. Would have to re-check that.

[EtherealN]

I use flight director for rocket runs

 

That's an interesting approach. I personally love the AP channels most specifically for rocket runs - I set up a stable attitude while getting my speed for the target, get aligned such that the pipper is on a line below the target, and then fly forward well stabilized (lets me re-lase for up-to-date range etc with less worry as well as making it easier to keep head swiveling to look for AAA-tracers and MANPAD plumes). Then I press weapon release just as the pipper enters the target, break off and get to a vantage point to see the effect of my weapons and, if necessary, plan a re-attack.

[Smokin Hole]

The easiest way to think the Flight Director is as the Autopilot Disconnect. Except for Hover Hold, I find the autopilot frustrating. After 4 years of flying I do know how to use it but I just don't like it. The real pilot of a real Kamov can easily feel and react to those 1-20% AP inputs and quickly decide which inputs he agrees with and which inputs he would rather countermand with cyclic pressure or by holding the trimmer. Even with FFB that sort of pilot-plane interface just isn't there for us. To me its better to just skip the middle-man.

[Ranger79]

Man, I got alot to learn about this beast, nice tactics discussed though.

[spikenet]

dont forget to fully trim before engaging hover hold. If you dont then the autopilot might not have enough authority to keep it in place.

 

You can put the vikrs in manual and shoot from further out, depends on the conditions as to whether you really want to do that.

 

Finally, I like using "turn to target" and basically fly the heli with the shkval, trim it so its not moving to fast and get those pesky targets from a distance :)

 

I dont use FD that much now I understand the use of the trim system.

 

have fun!

[fangav]

Also, make sure you haven't hit the "R" route key by mistake at any time because this will mean you have to fight the pvi800.

 

This took a long time for me to work out, Now I check the "Route" mode switch first if the chopper is having a mind of its own.

[nomdeplume]

2. Sorry, I meant Hover hold. If this system does work, does this mean I can just raise/lower the collective for a "pop up" maneuver?

Yes, but it's worth noting that when you engage hover hold all your autopilot channels will become enabled (well, unless the requirements aren't met, in which case they'll all be disabled :D). This includes altitude hold.

 

While you can override the autopilot's altitude hold with sufficient collective input, life will be easier if you disable that channel and just maintain your altitude yourself. I think there's also an altitude hold lever on the collective which resets the altitude the AP wants to hold, but it's been a long long time since I've flown this so I'm pretty fuzzy on that one. Don't think I used it much.

 

But yes, hover hold works nicely for pop-ups. I had some fun with a few Rolands last night, popping up from a hill, ducking back down if they shot at me, or sending a Vikhr their way if they didn't.

[MTFDarkEagle]

4 Most I've ever managed is 9.5 km from high alt.

Amateur :D

 

I've managed 10.5 from 200 meters or so.

[Nobody96]

Ok, I have some tips to share too :)

 

1. There are just a few things that could turn the shark while hovering:
   
   • wind: check if your autopilots are on and you don't have the flight director overwrite engaged
     
   • rudder trim/autopilot trim: hold the trim button, stop the rotation, release the trim button
     
   • route autopilot: check the if the switch on the collective is on
     
   • autoturn on target: check if the according button is lighted
     

[*]Hover popup: Getting height is easy. Just remember to hold the collective brake while climbing up. To decent without a getting into a vortex ring state, there is a button on the collective called auto-decent our something like that. Remember that this button works as an autopilot function, so its authority is limited

[*]Vikhr range: You will be allowed to fire and hit most of the time when the two circles in the hud are on over the other and your distance is less then 7km. If you want to fire at a longer distance or just don't want to align the shark everytime perfectly while in a auto hover auto turn, set the weapon computer to manual. The switch is below the master arm switch

[*]Learn to fly with the autopilot as a help, not an enemy. Try to push/hold the trimmer button frequently to adjust for changed flight attitude. If you befriend with it, after a while you delegate more and more work to it. Just strafing around a corner is a lot of fun when your autopilot does all the work an you are free to look for targets.

[*]

[Xxx]

Ok, I have some tips to share too :)

 

1. There are just a few things that could turn the shark while hovering:
   
   • wind: check if your autopilots are on and you don't have the flight director overwrite engaged
     
   • rudder trim/autopilot trim: hold the trim button, stop the rotation, release the trim button
     
   • route autopilot: check the if the switch on the collective is on
     
   • autoturn on target: check if the according button is lighted
     

[*]Hover popup: Getting height is easy. Just remember to hold the collective brake while climbing up. To decent without a getting into a vortex ring state, there is a button on the collective called auto-decent our something like that. Remember that this button works as an autopilot function, so its authority is limited

[*]Vikhr range: You will be allowed to fire and hit most of the time when the two circles in the hud are on over the other and your distance is less then 7km. If you want to fire at a longer distance or just don't want to align the shark everytime perfectly while in a auto hover auto turn, set the weapon computer to manual. The switch is below the master arm switch

[*]Learn to fly with the autopilot as a help, not an enemy. Try to push/hold the trimmer button frequently to adjust for changed flight attitude. If you befriend with it, after a while you delegate more and more work to it. Just strafing around a corner is a lot of fun when your autopilot does all the work an you are free to look for targets.

 

Good points. I use 4 frequently. Additionally, I enter targets marked with the Skhval, as TO points ( up to 9) and use the Autopilot to fly to the "marked" points. Whilst its flying to the marked targets, I have extra time to look around for threats and more targets. I guess thats why Kamov put these autopilot functions in, since we are flying the ship alone and need that extra automation.

 

What a superb sim this is!:D Just gone back to it from the A10..refresher courses needed:thumbup:

[Jaximus Decimus]

One number 1, I'd recommend using the pinky as your trimmer button. (That's where it is in the real thing, as well.)

 

Nuh uh. Check pages 79-80 of the manual. Unless the manual is wrong and I'm also wrong, the trimmer is the button that your thumb wants to naturally rest on. The pinky switch is for auto-hover engage.

 

I know, I'm a helicopter nazi.

[Dejjvid]

Here is very helpful tip for those of you that are struggling (fighting against the ka-50 while trying to fly).

 

If you have a TM Warthog stick. Assign trim to the BIG Pinky switch, not the nosewheel button.

It's very easy to keep holding the big one instead of the small one.

 

 

Situation: You are on the FARP, everything up and running. You are just about to increase collective.

 

1. HOLD trim button.

2. Increase collective and take-off.

3. When you have reached your desired attitude (pitch, rudder & bank), release trim button.

4. Voilá! You are flying straight and level!

 

5. Suddenly you want to do a sweet turn to the left. PRESS AND HOLD TRIM BUTTON before you move the stick or rudder!

6. With trim pressed, use some left rudder and bank to the left. Complete the turn and when you are in level flight. Release the trim button!

 

If you learn to fly with this technique, you have 100% control of the heli when you want. And the different AP's will control the heli when you have to manage other things.

 

It's really sweet to do nap-of-the-earth flying with the AP. Just engage ALT AP, and make sure it's set to radar. I only use ALT AP when i want to follow the ground (radar mode) or fly a bit higher to avoid mountains (BARO mode). When you release trim, ALT AP will keep your heli at the altitude above ground you are when you release trim.

As a side note, the AP can't adjust the collective very much, so don't expect to climb over Mt. Everest automagically..

 

The reason to choose the big pinky as trim button is that you sometimes need to hold the trim down for several minutes if you're doing some crazy ninja maneuvers.

If you want to hold a nice smooth turn, release the trim when you have the desired attitude.

When you want to cancel the turn, just press trim and readjust the attitude, then release trim again.

 

So to sum it up, press and HOLD trim before you touch the stick and rudder, when you're done maneuvering, release trim.

[159th_Viper]

So to sum it up, press and HOLD trim before you touch the stick and rudder, when you're done maneuvering, release trim.

 

As a Kamov pilot you would not pass Flight School :)

 

Listen carefully to the inputs of the Pilot: Press and immediate Release. Watch how he cranks it at low-level 4min in - Crazy Fun!

 

eq1kkvxAsd0

[Bushmanni]

If you just click the trimmer button while autopilot is on the autopilot input gets added to the trim forcing autopilot to use full authority to just keep the chopper in trimmed state. Example: If you turn right and stabilize for straight flight when not in FD mode, the autopilot will try to turn you to the left. Now when you click trim your trimmed state is the same amount too far right as the autopilot was steering left so the autopilot will need to continuously steer left to keep you in the straight flight. If wind or something causes the chopper to veer left there's no authority left for autopilot to steer you to the right back in correct direction.

 

There's no sense or need to just click the trimmer in this sim when AP is on. Maybe real Ka-50 trim system has weak solenoids which could burn if engaged for too long period or something like that but Apache has similar trim system and official procedure according to flight manual is to hold the trim button during maneuvers. Can anyone give some rational explanation why real Ka-50 procedure is to click the trimmer rather than hold? The information available to me means clicking makes no sense.

[Nate--IRL--]

Quoting myself from elsewhere

 

However there was big debate before about trim methods. The Press, move, release (as used in Matthias's track) proves ineffective when dealing with changes to the flight regime (ie speeding up or slowing down) and will always lead to fighting the autopilot.

 

The method of move, press-depress every 2 seconds or so is more realistic, and if you watch the videos of real Ka-50s you'll see this. It accounts for changes to the flight regime constantly, until the aircraft stabilises. The other method can not possibly do this.

 

Basically if you don't constantly trim, as you speed up, when you do eventually hit the trim button the Autopilots 20% control input disappears, leading to uncommanded control surface input.

 

EDIT:- For this reason I Fly with the FD on almost exclusively.

 

EDIT2:- Best description of the AP system I 've come across --> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36246&highlight=ivan+autopilot

 

Nate

Edited November 8, 2011 by Nate--IRL--

[159th_Viper]

Can anyone give some rational explanation why real Ka-50 procedure is to click the trimmer rather than hold?

 

In the absence of input from the RL Kamov Pilots/SME's over on the Russian side of the forums, herewith link to articles by Erik 'Einstein' Pierce which explains things rather well:

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_426a.html

[Xxx]

My understanding is that;-

 

When you "click" the trimmer you are setting the currently held Cyclic attitude as new centre datum. Hence, the proceedure is;- set attitude with cyclic, "click" trimmer, release cyclic to null centre within 0.5 seconds and so on. Holding the Trimmer down between cyclic inputs does not provide an accurate centre datum for attitude.

 

I use this proceedure and it works for me in the Ka-50. I have never flown a AH-64 so can not comment on that helo.

 

The film example, provided by Viper, demonstrates this by the pilot constantly "clicking" trim at every cyclic (attitude) change.

 

This is my favorite example. Watch the Cyclic graphic in the top right window. Its released after each cyclic input and trim.:joystick:

 

http://youtu.be/KWxzKHThcZU

 

I dont think you could fly it with the trim pressed down and then released at the next desired attitude:D

[jib]

It doesn't look like anyone has mentioned it. To stop the yaw you were describing make sure you lock the target and turn on "AUTO TURN" on the left weapons panel.

This will turn the front of the aircraft to face whatever the shkval is looked onto (make sure FD is off for this to work).

[Bushmanni]

My understanding is that;-

 

When you "click" the trimmer you are setting the currently held Cyclic attitude as new centre datum. Hence, the proceedure is;- set attitude with cyclic, "click" trimmer, release cyclic to null centre within 0.5 seconds and so on. Holding the Trimmer down between cyclic inputs does not provide an accurate centre datum for attitude.

 

I use this proceedure and it works for me in the Ka-50. I have never flown a AH-64 so can not comment on that helo.

 

The film example, provided by Viper, demonstrates this by the pilot constantly "clicking" trim at every cyclic (attitude) change.

 

This is my favorite example. Watch the Cyclic graphic in the top right window. Its released after each cyclic input and trim.:joystick:

 

http://youtu.be/KWxzKHThcZU

 

I dont think you could fly it with the trim pressed down and then released at the next desired attitude:D

 

Tyger was using flight director mode. I don't think you could enjoy flying it without it.

 

I tried the click method again with a more frequent clicking than before and got even worse performance. When accelerating it wasn't that bad and I use normal mode occasionally for that myself but doing a turn without holding trimmer or using FD was just horrible. Because of the added AP input to the trim the AP could never hold the direction I trimmed it to hold. The result was series of back and forth corrections that eventually got small enough that AP could handle the aircraft but that took considerable time. Now all this happened just like predicted when considering how the AP works.

 

If you could manage to fly neatly with click method making turns with it would still be slower and take more mental resources that could be used for something else. We are flying a combat aircraft after all and not an airliner.

 

Now that I watch the real life Ka-50 footage again he seems to be having similar problems as I. When he presses the trim the nose tends to move to the opposite direction he's pushing it before trimming and he has to correct it with re-trim. When he tries to fly straight he wobbles left and right trimming again and again but not achieving straight flight. That could be of course due to some other factor like wind and turbulence but it does seem like my flying with the click method. All that wobbling and non coordinated flying is easily remedied with hold-trimming method.

 

But I'm willing to give it benefit of doubt and ask someone who thinks he can fly properly with the click trimming method to show me how it's done and make a track as I'm curious about it. There's never too many tools in your tool box. I also attached a track of me flying with the click method and hold method, any feedback is welcome.

TrimmingMethods.trk

[159th_Viper]

But I'm willing to give it benefit of doubt and ask someone who thinks he can fly properly with the click trimming method to show me how it's done and make a track as I'm curious about it. .

 

Ok - just to mention that I do not necessarily think I can fly properly (not at this stage, in any event), nor am I attempting to show you how to do it :)

 

Merely illustrating the click-immediate-release while being silly and throwing her around tight turns a wee bit:

 

Trim.trk