BS2 TRIM DIFFERENCES ?

[Kite]

hello,

using bs2 i noticed a little difference betweeen trimming in BS1 and BS2.

Example :

In bs1 while in a turn I roll to a straight flight and, as soon as i have my roll levelled, I push trim button quickly and it I was in straight flight

 

In BS2, while in a turn, i roll to a straight flight , push trim button but my angle goes a little on the opposite direction. I have to turn a little in opposite direction and trim again and if it is not yet levelled i turn again and trim... till i find the straight flight .. let's say in BS1 I was in level flight in 1 trim.. in BS2 takle me 2 or more.

 

I settled the same parameter of stick as in bs1 with the curve setted up to 15 for joy Y and X like suggestet from (bucic i think ) in an old post.

 

More over i feel the cyclic also a little less quick in response to the input..

It seemed more quicker to response in BS1. I have a X52 stick.

It is normal ?

 

Thanks

[159th_Viper]

Nothing has changed between BS1 and BS2. Dependant on the mission you flew, could it be the weather playing a part? If you could post a track that would help. I would also set the curves for the Helo input at default, if only to troubleshoot.

[Aviators]

I also have this difference in cutting trim, I modified the X and Y in the DeadZone 5 and curvature 8 .

15 is too excessive, use 10 ;)

[sylkhan]

Nothing has changed between BS1 and BS2.

 

Incorrect. Trimming as somthing wrong in BS2

 

More over i feel the cyclic also a little less quick in response to the input..

It seemed more quicker to response in BS1. I have a X52 stick.

Thanks

 

Correct. I noticed this too.

[DanKurt]

There seems to be a definite difference between BS1 and BS2 but I feel that the changes to how the weather affects the helo may be having an influence on how we need to trim.

I may start to play with the axis curves later, but for now I am going to see if I get used to this characteristic.

[159th_Viper]

Incorrect. Trimming as somthing wrong in BS2....

 

Only as it relates to FFB. If you have a non-FFB flightstick then nothing has changed at all. As a consequence nothing is at fault. If you are having an issue, kindly post a track with attendant explanation so we can investigate.

[SNAFU2000]

Only as it relates to FFB.

 

 

Got a none FFB Thrustmaster Warthog and need to trim same way as mentioned before

Edited November 9, 2011 by SNAFU2000

[naz]

In my opinion i also think that the trimming between BS1 and BS2 is different. I have also a non FFB joystick.

[PeterP]

I don't want to judge or comment if there is a diffrence in trimming between BS1 and BS2 for non-FFB joysticks. -I'm much to unexpired in flying BS without a FFB.

 

But here is a way for you to see if there is a great discrepancy in the Trim behaviour. - something that isn't possible to see clearly by watching tracks.

 

You need at last enough space on the desktop for seeing two windows of BS at the same time to do this and BS1 and BS2 installed.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1322083#post1322083

 

 

Here are some videos -

both simulations run side by side in 1024x768 windowed and in very low settings - and both get the exact same DirectX commands.

Sorry for the sluggish FPS , but this is not very surprising when running two instances of DCS at the same time and capturing it.

 

Please pay only attention to the trimmer-click and what happens.

 

Please Don't comment on asynchrony in flight - no Flight-Model is written in stone! - we want only discuses the behaviour after releasing the trim-button.

 

And to help de-clutter this thread - don't post if you don't have a FFB joystick or no experience with it! (I tested with a non FFB and everything is as fine as it can be...)

This "bouncing" issue appears only if you have a FFB joystick.

 

And once again -my explanation for this problem:

 

 

As I know how hard it is to tell the different between wanted and unwanted control inputs in a Track I turned on the gauge-lights when I experience the pitch up that wasn't there in BS1.

 

And it is not there when I "blink" the trim repeatedly while changing the direction.

 

But from all I know about trimming in a helicopter this should also be possible when you press and hold trim + change direction and than release trim.

But every-time I do this I will have a pitch up.

And this is what I have done all the years in BS1 without the slightest problem and It was often told from testers/and RL-pilots that this is the right thing to do: Holding trim - Changing direction - than releasing Trim.

 

I think that the Trim logic has changed a bit:

BS1:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is released and you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = autopilot authority is there again and readjusted to the the state the cyclic is while the trim has been released.

BS2:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is not released but you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = the old autopilot authority is for a small time-period there again and than readjusted to the new state the cyclic is while the trim has been released. - this leads to a unwanted control.

 

 

And when you "blink" the trim the above described logic is still there but much less noticeable because the changes in the autopilot authority are much smaller.

 

But I don't think that this should be the thing you have to do...

So- my question is which files I have to tweak/overwrite to get the old FFB-trim behaviour back?

 

Right now I use a Autohotkey-script that Switches on the Flight-Director mode while I hold down the trim button.

-So I have almost the old flight characteristic of BS1 back when trimming and the pitch up isn't so strong.

But this can't be the solution in my point of view.

 

EDIT:

And BTW - As I told yesterday- I had guests during the night... and I have a really strong hang-over now...

- so please don't expect to see me flying in a aesthetic way in the attached track.

Just observe the stick-input and the behaviour of the helicopter when I turn on the gauge-lights to underline that this was a unwanted "pitch up" I noticed.

 

 

PS: 11-07-2011

 

Had more time to test this at the weekend(yes -I had to "test" instead of flying.. -sad but true..) :

 

I want to underline that this "pitch up" issue every-time you trim is not only annoying and can be compensated by just giving a little more pitch-down on the cyclic after you released the trim...

 

The Ka-50 will get absolutely uncontrollable with more trimming !

 

Let me explain:

When You often trim while you have the FFB stick in a state when you have a negative pitch (something what you usually have all time in a helicopter) - The Auto-pilot channel adds a little positive pitch to your "virtual" stick position when you trim. - So you add a little negative pitch to your real stick to compensate this - and steer where you want instead of going up.

 

When you do this more often you will end having your FFB stick holding full deflected witch negative pitch while the Virtual stick is in positive pitch...

 

So you have no more axis-travel left to compensate this discrepancy in your Real to the Virtual position. - and you will end up facing you nose to the sky while you hold your stick full deflected forward....!

 

 

I have no curves or what-else tweaked in my MS-FFB2.

 

All time I praised BS for the accurate simulation of a helicopter cyclic trim system .

This is one was always of the greatest key features in this sim - Simulating the FM accurately.

So it gets also the attention of RL-Pilots that only want to fly around - instead of shooting stuff..

 

But I can't hold this statement with BS2.

 

In short:

BS2 is not Flyable with a FFB joystick any more.

 

Please,please,please have a sharp look what changed between BS1 and BS2.

 

Until this bug exist I won't fly in BS2 any more. - this should not sound like a threat... - it's just the truth.

 

Track: http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=58412&d=1320479285

 

 

 

 

1.

Settings:

FFB ON

AP-Channels that are ON: Bank/Heading/Pitch

 

= bouncing when trim is released

 

2.

Settings:

FFB ON

AP-Channels that are ON: Bank/Heading/Pitch and Flight Director

 

= No bouncing when trim is released

 

3.

Settings:

FFB OFF

Central Position Trimmer Mode OFF

AP-Channels that are ON: Bank/Heading/Pitch

 

= No bouncing when trim is released

 

 

@ Nate

Please let me know if you need a "part-time tester" when Olgerd and you nailed the problem down.

 

and BTW

 

I see this different - I want to enjoy BS2 as quick as possible the same way I enjoy BS1...

 

 

So Please try to run and post similar test when discussing this further.

 

It's very hard to discuss about "feelings".

Edited November 9, 2011 by PeterP

[SNAFU2000]

I don't wan't to judge or comment if there is a diffrence in trimming between BS1 and BS2 for non-FFB joystics.

 

But i can judge. I used to fly the shark almost daily from march of this year until now.

Another problem is, my BS2 occasionally stops receiving input from my Cyclic for several seconds. My flightstick is working fine with DCS Warthog and BS 1.0.2.

Edited November 9, 2011 by SNAFU2000

[MTFDarkEagle]

SNAFU2000: That could be down to the trimmethod you are using. Either centertrimmer or not. If not, the controls won't do anything for...1/2 (?) second, and centre trim means that the controls won't do anything untill you center your actual flightstick.

[nomdeplume]

and centre trim means that the controls won't do anything untill you center your actual flightstick.

...and rudder, which is easy to forget.

[Kite]

i've seen the video. Yes i think i have the same problem . Less stable trim . But i have in the pitch but also in the bank.

I only wanted to understand if it is a modified trim setting and we need only to get used to it . Anyway I had this differece from BS1 .

[Nate--IRL--]

But i can judge. I used to fly the shark almost daily from march of this year until now.

Another problem is, my BS2 occasionally stops receiving input from my Cyclic for several seconds. My flightstick is working fine with DCS Warthog and BS 1.0.2.

 

Turn off the central trimming method in the MISC page of the options. You have a different trimming method selected in the 2 sims, that is why it feels different. Also check your Joystick curves match between the 2 sims.

 

Nate

[PeterP]

...and rudder, which is easy to forget.

Try this: How to unchain the rudder from trim

[Skkuda]

Nothing has changed between BS1 and BS2

 

Lack of characteristic and audible noise (CLANK!....well, some like that) when trimming!

Please anyone confirm that!

 

Cheers

[Nate--IRL--]

That is also unchanged.

 

Nate

[sylkhan]

Only as it relates to FFB. If you have a non-FFB flightstick then nothing has changed at all. As a consequence nothing is at fault. If you are having an issue, kindly post a track with attendant explanation so we can investigate.

 

Is that enough for you ...

 

 

Got a none FFB Thrustmaster Warthog and need to trim same way as mentioned before

 

In my opinion i also think that the trimming between BS1 and BS2 is different. I have also a non FFB joystick.

 

I don't want to judge or comment if there is a diffrence in trimming between BS1 and BS2 for non-FFB joysticks. -I'm much to unexpired in flying BS without a FFB.

 

But I here is a way for you to see if there a great discrepancy in the Trim behaviour. - something that isn't possible to see clearly by watching tracks.

 

You need at last enough space on the desktop for seeing two windows of BS at the same time to do this and BS1 and BS2 installed.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1322083#post1322083

 

 

 

 

 

So Please try to run and post similar test when discussing this further.

 

It's very hard to discuss about "feelings".

[Nate--IRL--]

Is that enough for you ...

 

No, not one of those posts describe any changes other that it "Feels" Different, PeterPs excellent videos apply ONLY to Force Feedback sticks.

 

Please describe, in detail, what is different.

 

Nate

Edited November 9, 2011 by Nate--IRL--

[159th_Viper]

Lack of characteristic and audible noise (CLANK!....well, some like that) when trimming!

Please anyone confirm that!

 

Nope - it's still there. Both press and release trim inputs are audible.

[sylkhan]

No, not one of those posts describe any changes other that it "Feels" Different, PeterPs excellent videos apply ONLY to Force Feedback sticks.

 

Please describe, in detail, what is different.

 

Nate

 

1) Read the OP post, it will give you a good indication on some of the differences between BS1 and BS2

 

2) Be used to fly BS1 in the correct way (without FD on), and fly BS2 in the correct way (without FD on), and you will see what is different.

[159th_Viper]

1) Read the OP post, it will give you a good indication on some of the differences between BS1 and BS2

 

2) Be used to fly BS1 in the correct way (without FD on), and fly BS2 in the correct way (without FD on), and you will see what is different.

 

There's no difference insofar as tests I have conducted. In any event, without track illustrations and attendant explanations, we are none-the-wiser. Herewith quote from another thread dealing with the very same issue:

 

Ran a quick test with non-FFB (Cougar Nxt) and am not experiencing any issues with 'CENTRAL POSITION TRIMMER MODE' unticked.

 

Now in order to investigate iro non-FFB flight-stick, I flew a quick distance from Batumi and back - track and mission attached (ignore flying fidelity - have splint on right wrist: Pay attention to trim inputs/attendant manoeuvring/attitude of helicopter):

 

 

[ATTACH]58464[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]58465[/ATTACH]

 

 

Would all non-FFB pilots kindly just watch, attempt to replicate and post tracks and explanations so we can narrow down the issue. As I said, I'm not experiencing the 'pitch-up' at all, unless intentionally induced to bleed speed. Not necssary even replicate - just a quick spin is all that's required.

[Secret]

I also notice a difference betwen BS1 BS2 trimming system. I have an X-52. Same profile, same axis curve, same DZ but BS1 was so much stable for me.

 

I have some issues with bank angle. In BS1 i could trim with a quick "press/release" i mean adjust the desire bank angle and then press and release but now in BS2 i need to press then adjust the desire angle and then release. If i trim as in BS1 the autopilot will keep going at the direction of the last input even if the cyclic is centered. Lets say: While in level flight i need to make a left turn, so left cyclic left pedal until desire heading. Ones i have to level again, right cyclic, right pedal perfectly level, press/release trim button, and the aircraft start banking to the right. I get use to it now, but it was more easy for me in BS1. And it has nothing to do with the centered position trim option.

[falcon_120]

I have a Saitek x45 and I bought BS2 like 5 or 6 month ago after more than a year with BS1.

I didn't feel anything very different from BS1 apart from some change in the throttle run,in esence now I need to push it forward more if I want to gain altitude,but that's all.