What's your technique for flying the Shark smoothly?

[Stretch]

I have a lot of trouble flying the Shark smoothly; that is to say, I can imagine what it is I want the Shark to do at any point in time; it's just hard moving my arms and legs in such a way as to get the Shark to do that (and only that).

 

I feel like most the time the trimmer is a burden, not an asset, and I am fighting with it, rather than it making my flying easier. I just want the plane to fly nice straight lines beautiful, gentle curves, but it's always heaving and hoing as I wrestle with the stick and the trimmer.

 

Any techniques for becoming a Black Shark formation aerobatics pilot?

[PeterP]

This helped me very much : How to unchain the rudder from trim to get back the control over my legs.

 

I use a FFB stick exclusively for BlackShark - so I'm not much help to tell how to Trim with a Force-Sensitive-Stick (but others may will...)

But here is a posting I made that should give you a little more insight how trim works and is be done in real:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1331026#post1331026

To trim smoothly - without jumpiness in the stick response:

 

Before making a bigger direction changes: hold down trim - complete the manoeuvre - than release trim.

 

or

 

use smaller steps - means "blink" the trimmer often while changing direction.

 

Both methods represent RL procedures.

If a RL pilot wouldn't do it this way -he would also have to fight the sudden change in the spring-load of the cyclic.

And have the same difficulties you describe and loose precision.

 

Here is a video - and listen to the click:

Simulator session of a Mi-171

 

This will ensure that you don't fight the AP while changing direction (Holding down the trim will also decouple the AP channels similar like in Flight-Director mode) and you will have not to move your hand against a constant force. - While holding trim the stick will get loose and you can move the stick freely around as smooth like butter.

 

Conclusion:

The MS-FFB2 is the most realistic joystick that the "average-Joe" could get easily if he wants the most realistic experience to fly a Force-trim equipped helicopter.

Also keep in mind that FD-Channel has to be switched on constantly in BS2 to avoid the "pitch-up"bug.

 

Edit:

I tried to do the same with X52 - and to make it short :

It's impossible.

 

With a none FFB stick you always have to count in the reaction the helicopter will make after you have trimmed, this will make a intuitive control very hard - but you can get used to it - until you experienced how it is with FFB.

-and it is almost impossible for me to use a normal stick with BS again without the feeling that I lost something essential.

[Luigi Gorgonzola]

Basically confirming what PeterP wrote. I'd just have to add that you'd first of all have to stop fighting. I guess, this is the hardest part as it cannot be covered by hard- and software - it is entirely up to your mind.

 

I found flyiing boring training exercises very useful to overcome the "fight". Starting with a "simple" hover, at 3 m AGL keeping altitude and attitude for at least five minutes - and yes, be anal with it. Extend the hover time or alter your weather conditions once you become comfortable hovering.

 

Next, fly a rectangle at 3 m AGL and constant speed. Do NOT turn the Shark in any direction, just move forward, sidewards, backwards and sidewards again. Switch direction, alter weather conditions etc. as soon as you become used to this.

 

And so on. There is a "Heli School" for FSX somewhere in the net (it seems to be pretty famous, so it should be easy to find it). The lessons published on that site really helped me very much (and I'm not yet done).

 

I've been told that IRL an average PPL(H) trainiing spends about 20 hours just for the two exercises I described above...

 

I have a non FF stick, so I cannot comment on that topic, I guess.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Luigi Gorgonzola
fypo tixing

[EtherealN]

My solution after learning the basic trimmer functions was quite simply: I spent several days just flying around enjoying the scenery. The idea being that I don't specifically try my darndest to fly smooth, I just fly, and eventually it sort of "clicks" in your head and things start to happen automatically.

 

The danger with actively trying to learn it is that you can easily end up focusing on it so hard that you tense up, and then you might as well give up. (I had similar experience when taking my license IRL, but then I had the advantage of a backseater who could take over whenever I got frustrated, reset it to a stable attitude, and I could take control back and try again.)

[Nobody96]

What helped me most was getting a few hours in the shark without a single autopilot activated. This way I learned how it reacts to regular inputs and got a feeling for it. You cannot do a flat turn with a IAS of 100+ and the bird tries to roll when it picks up speed. Thats all explained in the manual quite nicely, but imho you have to get a feeling for it.

 

That done, start using the APs with the FG swich on. This way you see where they are helping you and you get a feeling for them to. After that turn the switch off and try to use the AP to your advantage. BTW: The thing I currently miss most because of the ffb-bug and the inability to use the autopilots is that I cannot really trim my rudder anymore to slip left around a corner while locking things up with my shkval. Therefore I don't get it why anyone wants to unchain their pedals. Nevertheless, its a nice option, because everyone seems to have his one way to tame the shark.

 

so long

Mathias

Edited November 24, 2011 by Nobody96

[PeterP]

Therefore I don't get it why anyone wants to unchain their pedals.

 

Do you use pedals or a twist-stick?

Without real pedals -I would also stay with the default rudder-trim.

[Nobody96]

Do you use pedals or a twist-stick?

Without real pedals -I would also stay with the default rudder-trim.

 

Ok, THAT might be the reason :-) Never used a twist-stick in black shark.

 

so long

Mathias

[WildBillKelsoe]

 

I feel like most the time the trimmer is a burden, not an asset, and I am fighting with it, rather than it making my flying easier. I just want the plane to fly nice straight lines beautiful, gentle curves, but it's always heaving and hoing as I wrestle with the stick and the trimmer.

 

Any techniques for becoming a Black Shark formation aerobatics pilot?

 

Who said its supposed to be easy? I mean real pilots struggle with even less maintained systems and they eventually fly and land, even that to us (the naked eye) they seem in control, yet they are fighting with it. Its normal also in this sim specially that the shark was a prototype, let alone back in the 80's when it was a transit from the analog to the digital era.

 

It seems that you are using a full fledged cockpit, with some heavy sophisticated sh1t... Perhaps you should try something like the T-flight Hotas X?

 

Next, I disagree with your beef with the trimmer. I find it the essence in fine tuning the chopper, and trust me, it was first rough, but after so many crashes and experience, you are to become one with the joystick in a sense that you know that moving the stick forward by X much will produce the required pitch.

 

For me, I think autopilot channels for pitch, bank and heading hold are the cornerstones in maintaining this bird.

 

And specially the heading hold mapped to a HOTAS command, which will help in providing initial direction, augmented next by a minor forward trim, and finally, the route mode set to none desired heading or track (middle position) to maintain the direction of flight.

 

I'm planning on getting a decent HOTAS for a simpit project I'm saving for. Perhaps you'd be kind to show us your pit?

[Smokin Hole]

FD ON.

[mjolner]

What Smokin Hole said. On my TM Warthog I mapped the paddle switch at the base of the joystick ( cant remember what its really called ) to my trimmer, then mapped the pinkie switch to toggle the flight director. I use my saitek rudder pedals toebrakes for braking.

 

With FD on you are not fighting the auto pilots but you still have stability augmentation. She just goes where you want. Once you have a stable flight regime after a maneuver, switch FD off. With FD on you can still trim, but the stability modes wont fight against you when change flight regimes. Lets say you have the cyclic trimmed to the right, but you want to complete a quick turn and move the cyclic left, the autopilot wont fight you by trying to maintain heading. Just remember to switch the FD off before you try to hover.

 

Once I started doing that, it was a new experience in the Kamov.

Edited November 24, 2011 by mjolner

[Mustur]

Have to agree that with Flight Director mode enabled it feels more natural, to me at least.

 

I wonder how often do real Kamov pilots use it.

[GGTharos]

They don't. In fact, their procedures dictate that it should not be used. I'm sure there are exceptions beyond AP/sensor malfunction though. Most modern helis have such augmentations and procedures dictate using them. If you cannot fly with it off, the problem rests with you not understanding and not being able to work with the AP influence. Some leeway must be made for the fact that you don't have real controls or feeling, but that's how it is.

 

 

Have to agree that with Flight Director mode enabled it feels more natural, to me at least.

 

I wonder how often do real Kamov pilots use it.

[Mustur]

They don't. In fact, their procedures dictate that it should not be used...

 

Thanks for answering. Since I don't yet have rudder pedals FD is definitely of some use. Since the only problem for me is fighting with AP on the yaw channel.

[PeterP]

But keep in mind that with FD off you have a much better "Hands off" flight stability after trimmed properly.

[Mustur]

But keep in mind that with FD off you have a much better "Hands off" flight stability after trimmed properly.

 

Roger, and thanks for posting that video. Didn't know they trim so often when changing flight parameters, gotta try that.

[ErichVon]

Basically confirming what PeterP wrote. I'd just have to add that you'd first of all have to stop fighting. I guess, this is the hardest part as it cannot be covered by hard- and software - it is entirely up to your mind.

 

I found flyiing boring training exercises very useful to overcome the "fight". Starting with a "simple" hover, at 3 m AGL keeping altitude and attitude for at least five minutes - and yes, be anal with it. Extend the hover time or alter your weather conditions once you become comfortable hovering.

 

Next, fly a rectangle at 3 m AGL and constant speed. Do NOT turn the Shark in any direction, just move forward, sidewards, backwards and sidewards again. Switch direction, alter weather conditions etc. as soon as you become used to this.

 

And so on. There is a "Heli School" for FSX somewhere in the net (it seems to be pretty famous, so it should be easy to find it). The lessons published on that site really helped me very much (and I'm not yet done).

 

I've been told that IRL an average PPL(H) trainiing spends about 20 hours just for the two exercises I described above...

 

I have a non FF stick, so I cannot comment on that topic, I guess.

 

Messages Posts #2 and 3:

 

Rapid clicking the trimmer button and the FSX Heli School reference. I did not know about the FSX helicopters' training. Is there a 2012 FSX update? Must be the scenery update. Or this: http://www.robbonline.se/

 

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=fsx+heli+school&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

All I fly for the last couple months is mostly BS2 in DCS and BS1 in FC2. I do stray a little bit with the P-51D and Su-25T.

 

I think Black Shark 1 and 2 are much harder to fly than the FSX helicopters I have tried.

 

I like the idea of trying to learn hovering and flying about like flying a RC helicopter. Same should be doable in Black Shark clicking F2, offline in Single Player.

 

Thanks for the advice, actually the entire thread.

Edited July 2, 2012 by ErichVon

[mmaruda]

To be frank, I'm not really good at this, but flying with a non FFB stick is a pain. Even when you do things right, the virtual stick is in a completely different position than you'd expect.

 

Anyway, I use whatever I can to fly smoothly - hold-manouver-release, FD, proper method... But the last is the most demanding. I still don't get why the bump happens - it should be the question of a non FFB stick, but even doing it properly (according to all that was written on it), bumps still occur. It's also very hard to be precise with your manoeuvres with the 20% AP authority. Personally, I think this is just plain stupid, but I blame Kamov, not ED. :D

[Mouse]

"In Soviet Russia, helicopter flies you!"

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist. But seriously, the way I fly the Black Shark is to let it do the flying. You're just a backseat driver in that thing. I gave up wrestling with the autopilot and now I just let it cruise along however it wants. Does it look crooked? Fine. Whatever. I guess Black Sharks fly crooked; whatever the stupid thing wants. It doesn't have a flight path marker anyway so hell if I know, right? In other words, I stopped fussing with the controls so much. We get along better now, but we still probably need some marriage counseling.

 

I always keep the control input visualization window open (ctrl+enter) when flying the Black Shark so that I know what it considers neutral trim to be at. This is especially important for keeping tabs on rudder input, and for me negates the feeling that I need a FFB stick to fly it.

[PeterP]

For all people that stumble across this thread and still wondering how to trim the Ka-50:

 

 

This is a "must read" besides the manual:

 

-Trimming the Ka-50 Black Shark

 

-Part 1 - Autopilot

 

-Part 2 - Autopilot

 

 

And when you still have time , read this too:

A Stick and Rudder Man's Guide

to DCS: Black Shark

 

Here is a useful tweak if you using real rudders:

How to unchain the rudder from trim - solution

 

 

And when you cant afford a FFB joystick that is only dedicated for the use with the Ka-50.

 

 

Here is a very clever Mod that will enable you to tick the "Use force FFB" function in DCS and flying the Ka-50 almost the same as with a FFB stick because this design simulates very well the behaviour of a real Force-trim stick

 

So you can use a relative cheap Joystick to mod it like below - and you will have instantly a lot of more fun flying the Ka-50.

 

>>>> Joystick Mod to Eliminate Trimming

 

I had this idea and started researching it... I found that a few other people have done it so here is a little description to help others. My original thread on this is here: Joystick Spring Removal and Modding

 

I removed the centering spring and added dampers on my Saitek ST290. This holds the stick in place where I leave it and eliminates the need to trim the cyclic. The ability is still there, but it is not necessary.

 

I simply cut the spring into small pieces with wire cutters (be careful, the pieces shoot off violently), then cut the centering disc into pieces to remove it.

 

I originally added electrical, then later duck tape to the ball of the joystick. This worked relatively well, but had areas of different resistance.

 

So I decided to add small hydraulic dampers to keep the stick in place... I simply ran a piece of electrical wire around the joystick and through the damper holes, then used a hose clamp to tighten the wire to the joystick. The other end of the dampers are held with regular wood screws.

 

I bought the dampers at a local hobby shop. They are meant for a small RC car suspension and come as a "shock replacement" kit. The cost was approximately $15. They are sold many places online. The trick is to not fill them completely full of oil, or they extend back out when compressed. (and do not use the springs of course...)

 

Click here for an article on filling the shocks with oil.

 

 

Here are some pics and videos:

 

 

Mine:

 

 

 

Unknown: (if this is yours, please let me know so I can give credit)

 

 

 

 

 

And the videos:

 

 

 

 

This works very well and I highly encourage people to try it!! Thanks for looking!

 

The OP modified his design meanwhile with a extension to use it in a centre-stick configuration

>>> Extended Joystick Pictures (Saitek ST290)

 

...and If this is not enough for you and you want have your stick "as real as it can get" - go this way:

>>> Two MS FFB2 with Cougar Grip

 

Edited July 3, 2012 by PeterP

[red2112]

I just got into BS2 about 2 weeks ago. First week I was like.... I can´t control this! Now it´s like oh yeah now I gottcha!

 

Try this...

 

-Set your 3 autopilot´s on (no hold altitud or FD)

-Don´t use autoroute (the "R" key)

-Last and most important... right after you let go of your trim CENTER your joystick (bring it back to it´s center position) It will not pitch up and down that way.

 

So, trim and a sec. after you let go of trim, center joy!

 

When you fly, keep your eye on your VVI (Vertical Velocity Indicator) don´t go over +5 or -5. This is your main visual guide aide!

 

Good flying...

 

Red, out.

[159th_Viper]

.....the way I fly the Black Shark is to let it do the flying. You're just a backseat driver in that thing.....

 

You'll wake up one day and proclaim loudly from the rotor-assembly 'It's my turn to be on top, damnitall!

 

Then the fun will begin :D

 

4l_LhCRIRgo&hd=1

 

Seriously, Fly the Kamov like you stole her, albeit with a gentle hand.........Doing so will allow you to truly enjoy what the Helo can do and get you out of sticky situations much more easily than what you would have previously.

 

Don't be scared to throw her around - She Loves it!

[bengo]

That's a nice video Viper.

Is there any chance you can render this one again with the controls-window up, that would clarify things a lot for some of us.

Personally, i always keep trim pressed down the entire time I manoever, but that's not the way it's meant to be flown. So displaying the controls-window would help a lot.

 

B

[159th_Viper]

Herewith the link to the track in case you have BS2 installed. I do not at present so it will be a wee bit difficult - I'll have to refly :)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1324150&postcount=25

 

See if you can get the track to play back correctly. If not, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

[bengo]

Thanks

[Gary]

Not seen this mentioned on this thread but I find the trim reset command helps me a lot.

 

Think it has been said that just plain trimming can accumulate errors over a period of time?

 

Regards,

 

Gary