Trying to understand panel construction

[JCook]

I am a complete newbie on designing, fabricating, building and wiring sim panels. I’ve read several hundred posts on cockpit building wiring and panel building in the last few days and it is overwhelming.

 

I’m planning on building an A10 sim pit using the plans and information in these forums. The talent on these forums is amazing and helpful – and to be honest I am hoping to buy most of the components I need for my A10 pit. But I do want to learn to build panels and wire them for use with the A10C. It’s a steep learning curve and despite all that I have been reading some basic information is eluding me.

 

I am hoping someone might explain this in very simple step-by-step instructions – I have visited and read many of the externally referenced resources mentioned in the forums and I am still not getting it.

The example I have here is of the fuel panel. There are three layers and fortunately with this panel a diagram with dimensions was provided. Most of the panels with their dimensions seem very hard to come by. So here is a plea for more panel dimension diagrams.

 

(Please see attached file)

 

So let me ask some simple questions – the more detail you can provide the better.

Fuel Panel Base

I assume his is the piece that actually gets screwed into the rail system since the other layers are attached to the top of it.

Q: What material is the base made from?

Q: What is the thickness?

Q: Is this a CNC cutting process?

Fuel Panel Light Lower

This is slightly smaller in dimension and has larger cutouts for the switches. It is called a light layer so I’m assuming this is where we get the backlighting some how.

 

Q: Is there lighting some how attached or diffused to this layer?

Q: What material is this made of?

Q: What color is it?

Q: What is the thickness?

Q: How is it attached to the Base panel (glue? – what type)

Top Panel

This panel has all the labeling and cutouts for the switches. It appears the switches would be mounted (screwed down) below this level – I’d guess on the middle light level.

Q: What material is this made of?

Q: What type of paint / finishing do you use for this?

Q: What is the thickness?

Q: How is it attached to the Light panel (glue? – what type)

Q: How does the lettering get etched into the surface?

Q: Some panels have labeling that is always white – while other lettering glows green (backlit) as with the TM Warthog HOTAS Throttle panel. How is that accomplished?

If you can help me with these questions I would really appreciate it – I’m really trying to understand the process. If I can get this down and build a simple panel I can go on from there. The first panel I plan on building is the power panel (battery, inverter, etc.)

Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

 

John

[Deadman]

I am a complete newbie on designing, fabricating, building and wiring sim panels. I’ve read several hundred posts on cockpit building wiring and panel building in the last few days and it is overwhelming.

 

I’m planning on building an A10 sim pit using the plans and information in these forums. The talent on these forums is amazing and helpful – and to be honest I am hoping to buy most of the components I need for my A10 pit. But I do want to learn to build panels and wire them for use with the A10C. It’s a steep learning curve and despite all that I have been reading some basic information is eluding me.

 

I am hoping someone might explain this in very simple step-by-step instructions – I have visited and read many of the externally referenced resources mentioned in the forums and I am still not getting it.

The example I have here is of the fuel panel. There are three layers and fortunately with this panel a diagram with dimensions was provided. Most of the panels with their dimensions seem very hard to come by. So here is a plea for more panel dimension diagrams.

 

(Please see attached file)

 

So let me ask some simple questions – the more detail you can provide the better.All of this information has been posted i know the search function is not the easiest thing

Fuel Panel Base

I assume( assumption is the mother of all screw ups):smilewink: This is the piece that actually gets screwed into the rail system since the other layers are attached to the top of it.

Q: What material is the base made from? Aluminum

Q: What is the thickness? 0.64 min see MS25212

Q: Is this a CNC cutting process? Yes router, water jet or plasma.

Fuel Panel Light Lower the designer of your drawing has use this method Milspec panels use several methods of light the panels see MIL-P-7788F

This is slightly smaller in dimension and has larger cutouts for the switches. It is called a light layer so I’m assuming this is where we get the backlighting some how.

 

Q: Is there lighting some how attached or diffused to this layer? Not sure what layer your talking about

Q: What material is this made of?

Q: What color is it?

Q: What is the thickness?

Q: How is it attached to the Base panel (glue? – what type)

Top Panel How is the top light plate attached to the supporting base plate Screws

This panel has all the labeling and cutouts for the switches. It appears the switches would be mounted (screwed down) below this level – I’d guess on the middle light level. No to the back plate

Q: What material is this made of? plastic

Q: What type of paint / finishing do you use for this? Black and white Milspec see Mil specs

Q: What is the thickness? Of the plastic sheet or the paint? see mils spec attached

Q: How is it attached to the Light panel (glue? – what type) Screws

Q: How does the lettering get etched into the surface? LASER engraver

Q: Some panels have labeling that is always white – while other lettering glows green (backlit) as with the TM Warthog HOTAS Throttle panel. How is that accomplished? Panels show white when not lit blues green when lit the letters are filled with white paint when the incandescent bulbs are turn on in the panel they light up the NVIS filters that are place aound them see picture in Red's Thread

If you can help me with these questions I would really appreciate it – I’m really trying to understand the process. If I can get this down and build a simple panel I can go on from there. The first panel I plan on building is the power panel (battery, inverter, etc.)

Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

 

John

If your overwhelm take a break most of the builder have been at it for months if not several years

See red's thread for some pictures of a real panel

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=69945&page=25

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1307700&postcount=247

Edited January 2, 2012 by Deadman

[rocketeer]

John, don't worry or be overwhelmed. We all start from ground zero. How does one conquer Everest? One step at a time. Constant reading from this and other forums will get you comfortable. Most importantly is to start doing. Then bit by bit the mystery fades and you gain confidence. Soon what others do look too easy to you.

 

For engraving the white letters on black panel top, besides laser, you can also use router engraving, which I believe is most common among cnc machines.

 

The light blue material you see is EL sheet. There are some threads here and there showing how it works. It gives the most even backlighting. A common, cheaper way is putting a string of LEDs under the light panel. Backlighting is not necessary or even recommended for your first project. There are already many things to do-building the basic pit frame, the panels, searching for the switches, learning the wiring, learn the more complex output wiring and software config. You can start with just one big, long piece of wood, then paste pieces of printouts for the panels on top. Then wire all the switches straight to a sim card without breakout boards in between. Or you can create separate pieces for each panel. You can start simple and complete it sooner, then slowly upgrade things later, esp. After learning crucial skills first. Or you can plan and build the most beautiful looking pit. The downside is that it can take too long. You may run out of steam or budget and give up half way. It is up to you to strike the balance between something functional and perfection.

 

Look at bad crc's amazing black shark pit. He did not do backlighting. He did not have individual light and base panels, dzus screws etc. His switches are all on the same wood board. Wiring was straight forward from switches to the Leo boards, no intermediate Dsub connectors or breakout boards in between. And he is one of the few with a finished BS pit, and it looks awesome without individuals panels and backlighting. And he gets to fly it now.

 

So how detailed a put is of course up to you. The more details you want, the more you have to learn and build, and more time it needs. My advice is, for your first pit, don't plan something so complex that will take you 5 years to complete. You'd miss out on the fun of flying. My own approach is the poor man's way to complete it first. Then later improve it bit by bit.

[hog_driver111th]

My own approach is the poor man's way to complete it first. Then later improve it bit by bit.

 

I'm all for this. Actually everything Rocketeer said. I have my basic pit (monitor, HOTAS Warthog, and TM MFDs) at my desk. It's so basic it looks like I just got into flight simming. I am however building my actual pit on the side, testing the connections, adding and updating things, buying realistic looking panels. What I have so far doesn't do justice to even take pictures of, but I can still fly.

 

Keep yourself on the basic and work slow from there... just make sure you allow yourself to fly now and then.

[Deadman]

Personally I think you should figure out how detailed a pit you want, estimate what it will cost you. If your happy with that then measure twice cut once you will save money.

[JCook]

Thank you all for the help. I am going to start small with one panel (electrical) and get that working correctly. There is much to learn. I'll look into the EL sheets and their lighting - hadn't seen anything yet on those. Deadman you pointed out the milspec for the back panel was 0.62mm - does that equate to a gauge number for aluminum - like 16 gauge etc?

 

I am working on a temporary setup for my HOTAS, MFDs, monitor and pedals while I build my pit separately. So I can enjoy and keep progressing on the sim independent of the pit.

 

The electronics part is going to be interesting - my current knowledge doesn't go much beyond flicking a lightswitch. I should get a good book on basic wiring I guess.

 

I appreciate the support from the experts - Thanks.

[Deadman]

Yes Google is a wonder full thing:thumbup: The spec MS 25212 calls for a 0,064 minimum sorry for the typo. witch converts to 14 gauge on this chart http://www.corrugated-metals.com/gaugeindecimals.html

[JCook]

14 gauge - got it. Just ordered a USB interface card. Ok I found some EL sheet suppliers. Do these need to be green? Are they wowered separately from the USB interface. Can you point me to any DCS posts on this topic?

[hog_driver111th]

I'm almost done with a basic Elec panel (will be buying one soon). Once you have toggle switches and a Leo bodnar card, try some tests first. I didn't do any soldering to start, just laid the wires on the connectors on the switch, and plugged them into the Leo. When the software showed it worked, I then soldered the wire. I'm not much better than you in electronics, but if I can help get you started, let me know. Most of it is trial and error for me.

[JCook]

Thanks hog driver - if you have a diagram of the electrical panel - dimensions and measurements that would be helpful. I've found one pdf file in the forums that has the basic shape. If you've got one thats more detailed that would help. The best schematic I have is the fuel panel it seems to have every dimension needed. That one and the electrical diagram will be going to the CNC shop for cutting as soon as I can get a quote from them.

[JCook]

Panel Lettering

 

What is the best font to use when lettering the A10 panels?

[Timmay]

The font is called Font MS33558.

 

If I remember correctly, there was a download link somewhere in the forum.

 

Tim

[Swaty]

Here it is:

 

http://www.simpits.org/fileproc/showfiles.php

[JCook]

Building the panels

 

I'm looking for some additional information on panel building. I recently purchased some very nice panels from y2kiah and am going to try to build additional panels myself.

 

What is recommended for cutting the acryllic sheets into panel shapes. Can these be cut into shape with the CNC laser or is this done with a table saw, router and drill press?

 

What type of glue is recommended to cement the pieces of acryllic together?

 

Glossy or Matte finish black paint?

 

Any recommended internet suppliers for the acryllic sheets? I've looked at several and need to find a supplier that has 1/16" white sheets.

 

Thanks

[Deadman]

Here a few answers mostly what i remember from Y2kiah's thread

 

 

I'm looking for some additional information on panel building. I recently purchased some very nice panels from y2kiah and am going to try to build additional panels myself.

 

What is recommended for cutting the acrylic sheets into panel shapes. Can these be cut into shape with the CNC laser or is this done with a table saw, router and drill press? Either what do you have to work with

 

What type of glue is recommended to cement the pieces of acryllic together? Check http://www.viperpits.org/smf/index.php?action=forum

and Google is your friend

 

Glossy or Matte finish black paint? If you check some of the panel specs you will find all the colors for panel construction listed by their FS color number Black 37038, White 37837 or 37925, Yellow 33538 the colors all start with a 3 so they are all Matte finish

 

Any recommended internet suppliers for the acryllic sheets? I've looked at several and need to find a supplier that has 1/16" white sheets. No Idea

 

all so check http://www.xflight.de/simulator/panels/pnl_build04.jpg the panel section under simulator it has some good ideas

Thanks

[url=http://www.xflight.de/simulator/panels/pnl_build04.jpg][/url]

Edited March 8, 2012 by Deadman

[JCook]

Thanks Deadman

[Deadman]

your welcome Just sitting here cleaning knobs

[Gadroc]

For the acrylic sheets and acrylic cement check out Delvie's Plastics.

[Mike Powell]

The Tap Plastics website has a lot of information, both text and video. www.tapplastics.com

 

Acrylite is step higher in the plastic production food chain. The Acrylite website has more information. You'll need to register (free) to access the tech support stuff, but you can use the downloads section without doing so. (The link to downloads is on the bottom of the page.) www.acrylite.net

[Feed]

My supplier of choice is US Plastics.

[rubylight]

Panel Dimensions

 

...So let me ask some simple questions – the more detail you can provide the better. Fuel Panel Base:

I assume his is the piece that actually gets screwed into the rail system since the other layers are attached to the top of it.

Q: What material is the base made from?

Q: What is the thickness?

Q: Is this a CNC cutting process? ...etc.etc...

 

....Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

John

 

Hey John,

 

I've also started looking into cockpit building a bit, and given i'm a 3d-animator / designer, i started making layouts in SketchUp.

When i started researching about the dimensions of these panels i came across this document, by Hessel Oosten, explaining a lot about them.

I strongly suggest reading through it - it's only 15 pages - but to give a quick summary, here's what i learned:

 

The big round screws used to attach these panels are called 'DZUS-screws' (named after it's inventor), and attach to a wire underneath the attachment rails with only 1/4 turn.

The centers of the holes in the DZUS-rails are always 3/8" apart, and thus, the height of any panel is at least 3/8", or a multitude of that.

 

The backplate of a panel is normally made from aluminum, and is used to attach the panel to the rails in the cockpit. It's also where the switches, buttons, and lights are attached to. The height is variable, but as stated before, always one or # times 3/8". So:

1 rows high = 1 x 3/8" = 3/8"

2 rows high = 2 x 3/8" = 3/4"

3 rows high = 3 x 3/8" = 1 1/8"

...

7 rows high = 7 x 3/8" = 2 5/8"

..etc..

 

Now for the acrylic plate, on which the texts and labels are printed / engraved, and goes on top of the backplate.

It is made of some kind of transparent material (most likely clear or milky-white plexiglass in our cases) to allow the backlights to shine through.

 

Even though i'm from europe and we use mm mostly, i found that setting SketchUp to inches and allowing snapping, makes the 3d-modelling incredibly easy.

 

Hope this helps a bit :)

Edited July 29, 2017 by rubylight
(removed numbers that were inaccurate)

[Deadman]

that is a blast from the past.

[rubylight]

Well, it was the main one that came up when i searched for panel dimensions.

I hope the data and measurements are still usefull?

(And accurate, because i already found conflicting data from others, saying the acrylics are less thick than i read earlier :huh:).

Edited December 22, 2017 by rubylight

[Deadman]

Some is and other stuff has been misentrupided. For most panels ¼inch (6mm) acrylic is fine

the best thing to do is find the real names of the panels . As an example the IFF is called CONTROL, TRANSPONDER C-6280(P)/APX 5.75 inch by 5.25. You should be able to find a real one it is use in many aircraft and hellos on an auction site. The O2 panel that has a CRU- 52,55,68,72 several different designations. The CRU-68 I think goes in an A-10 for example most fall under MS 22062 that gives a measurement of 5.75 inch by 3 inches. The f-5 being a round for ever and in service with many countries you may get lucky and pick up real panel for a fraction of the cost in money and time of what it will take for you to build replicas. The DCS manual all so contains many of the names you need to look for panel parts indicator and instruments. I hope these few measurements help in some way all the best DM

 

P.S. A quick search on eBay reveiled this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-5-Freedom-Fighter-Aircraft-Light-Transmitting-Indicating-Panel-14-62925-5-/232037783399?hash=item3606879767:g:Un4AAOSwARZXon8b&vxp=mtr

The AN/ARC 164 radio you would need i have seen them cheaper.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ARC-164-F-16-Flight-Sim-UHF-radio-REAL-PART-for-full-size-simulator-F16-Arduino-/122419487042?hash=item1c80c52142:g:3l0AAOSwDNdVkbiO&vxp=mtr

 

 

Well, it was the main one that came up when i searched for panel dimensions.

I hope the data and measurements are still usefull?

(And accurate, because i already found conflicting data from others, saying the acrylics are less thick than i read earlier :huh:).

 

As for me, after a night of tinkering, i worked out what the panels of the F5E's right console would look like.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Deadman

[rubylight]

Sorry to 'kick a dead horse', but i've got one more question with those Dzus-things...

 

I've managed to export the F5's cockpit-model into Blender (thanks to NickD's python-script for blender - many thanks mate! :)), but now i see another thing happening.

First off i see that even the baseplates of the panels are beveled, though i saw that ingame already. But when i check the placement of these Dzus-rings, by making a copy and cloning them with an 'array'-modifier, some of them line up while others are completely off.

 

Was Belsimtek sloppy in their modelling (hard to believe), are the F5's panels special from others, or is there such a thing as 1/2 Dzus lengths or something..?

Note; it's not due to the imported model being warped; all the rings and circles in the model are perfectly round.

 

I thought i had the general idea, but now i'm getting confused... :huh: *sigh*

 

(edit: i know i'm prob. a bit too OCD about this, but i just hate it when a 'plan doesn't come together' :p )

Edited December 20, 2017 by rubylight