HOTAS alternatives rundown. Need help deciding!

[mjeh]

DISCLAIMER: Through some manner of witchcraft and/ or sorcery I am unable to write short, precise sentences. Read at your own peril!

 

Come end of january I'm getting a HOTAS system of some make, and I need some help and input from you veterans to decide which one to go for.

Through the research I've done so far it seems to me that there are mainly four alternatives, as I don't want anything considered "entry level"; Saitek's X52 Pro and X68F, Logitech's G940 and obviously TM's Warthog.

Here are my thoughts on the alternatives so far:

 

Saitek X68F

Not readily available in my country and is incredibly enough priced signifficantly higher than the TMW here, coupled with the fact that I am reluctant to buy a force sensitive joystick without first trying it to see how I like the feel. Therefore, I am not considering this setup.

 

Logitech G940

Seems to have some good things going for it like adequate number of hat switches and the fact that you get rudder pedals included, but from just glancing at user experiences and reviews I have identified a few points of concern;

 

• A reported "wobbly" tendency of the axis due to low centering force
  
• The throttle base does not seem sufficiently weighted (I have limited desk space and need to be able to move it out of the way without hassle, drilling holes and screwing/ gluing it in place is not an option)
  
• Rudder pedal set seems clunky and too space consuming in the debth dimension
  
• Logitech support reportedly unsatisfactory
  
• Large need for "fixes" and general fiddling to get it to work.
  

As it stands this list is enough to put me off this alternative, but I would still love to hear input on these points and users' experiences from actually using the set.

 

 

 

Saitek X52 Pro

This looks to me like a very solid choice, and it is by far the cheapest alternative. I'm loving the adjustable hand rest, the ergonomics of the throttle and the slider wheels. Very attractive design too, although this is hardly even a secondary concern. I've found it hard to find good reviews that focus on anything other than the sheer number of buttons though, so I'm left with a few questions and points of concern;

 

• Is the number of hat switches really sufficient for hi fi sims such as the DCS family?
  
• The mouse slew thingy seems rather a novelty
  
• Same goes for the LCD screen
  
• It is hard to find a good appraisal of its accuracy, but from the SimHQ review it seems less than stellar (?)
  
• The X52 reportedly has axis bleed between X and Y axis, I am unable to find information as to whether this is fixed in the Pro version (?)
  
• It is considered to be loose, maybe too much so (?)
  
• The X52 reportedly suffers from deadzone issues, no info on whether this is fixed in the Pro version (?)
  

 

 

 

Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS

Needs no further introduction in this forum I'm sure ;) There are however some concerns;

 

• Reported "stickiness", could someone explain this further? Jagged axis?
  
• May need to be lubed up (harr) several times per month (?)
  
• May die if used without firmware update
  
• Price!!!
  
• No rudder pedals included, adding signifficantly to the already high cost
  
• Obvious choice for DCS A-10C, not so obvious for other titles (even other current and future DCS titles)
  

 

 

 

My criteria, in no particular order

 

• Price
  
• Accuracy
  
• Number of buttons, hat switches in particular
  
• Comfortable in use
  
• Relatively easy to stow away (means no fixing in place on my desk)
  
• Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF)
  
• Feel
  
• Build quality
  
• Ruggedness, needs to last a few years at least
  
• Need for maintenance
  
• Quality of customer support from manufacturer
  
• Whether it makes my hair fairer and teeth whiter, although this is a secondary concern
  

 

 

Admittedly, I partly write this post to summarize my own thoughts to help myself decide, but I am very interested in opinions, experiences and general input. I am especially interested to hear input on the points of concern, concerns I haven't considered, and especially especially interested in hearing from people who have used 2 or more of these systems and can give a good comparison insight.

 

If I were to decide based on common sense and WAF, the Saitek X52 Pro would win hands down, and it is currently the lead contender. But as we all know, in the business of pretend flight and/ or tank busting, the needs of passion and feel can easily outweigh such mundane concerns as common sense and WAF :pilotfly:

 

If you don't want to read my wall of text, here's the base line; Is the TMWT experience even close to being that much better than the X52 Pro experience that it warrants the very steep rise in cost?

 

 

Any input will be much appreciated!

 

 

Mjeh out

[joey45]

From a logitech customer..

A reported "wobbly" tendency of the axis due to low centering force

yes there is....

 

The throttle base does not seem sufficiently weighted (I have limited desk space and need to be able to move it out of the way without hassle, drilling holes and screwing/ gluing it in place is not an option)

 

I too have limited space and you don't need it drilled in anywhere.. will upload a pic later...

 

Rudder pedal set seems clunky and too space consuming in the debth dimension

Arn't they all???

 

Logitech support reportedly unsatisfactory

 

NEVER had to phone them so I can't answer this Q.

 

Large need for "fixes" and general fiddling to get it to work.

nope..

Edited January 14, 2012 by joey45
uploaded pic.. :p

[mjeh]

Thanks for your reply, joey!

 

On the throttle base weight that was just a guess on my part having looked at videos of people lifting it around, but good to hear that I was wrong here.

 

All rudder pedal sets are indeed clunky, but it seems to me that perhaps the G940 one is especially so? Again just a guess based on watching pics and videos as I've never actually seen one in person.

 

As for the need for fixes and fiddling I've read that the G940 is plagued with a bug limiting the accuracy of the axis, and that a makeshift fix is only available for the stick axis. This could very well be dated information, however. But then, there are threads like this one: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=45695&highlight=g940

[pitbull]

I had a G940 and was very disappointed. I could not get some bindings to work, especially the hats. The center slop was a major point for me. I tried for 3-4 to set it up to the way i wanted to be, I never managed. At the end, I didn't have any fun playing on line, as my setup was never right, and was spending most of my time leaving the mission to fiddle with the controllers. I was about just to let go and was extremely frustrated.

 

I didn't like the rudder either, I found the pedals too close together, and there was something on that pot that wasn't just right, some spiking and a lack of smoothness.

At the end, I put my G940 on eBay, and bought a TM Warthog and a set of Saitek rudder pedals.

 

What a difference!!! The setup is mostly plug and play. tweak the axis a little bit, assign the trim on the POV hat (if you have a TIR) and your done!

 

*This is purely my opinion based on my past experience. Logitech have some really good products out there, I have a G15 keyboard 1st gen, a gaming headset, and a 30$ racing wheel that I have been using for 10+ years. I will certainly buy other Logitech products in the future. But the G940 did not cut it for me.

[sobek]

I had the G940 for about 2 months until the rotaries on the throttle started to spike.

 

While it 'worked' i was pretty unimpressed by the throttle precision, with both throttles locked together one of them was ahead at the middle of the range and dropped back to equal at the extremes of the range, so it had nonlinear response.

 

Also, the center slop and FFB implementation of drivers sucked like nothing else back then (got it at the end of 2010, so dunno if that has improved).

 

Finally, the placement of the analog hat is very odd and since this is a control that you need a lot (slew control), i was very annoyed by it being a) on the stick, where it was hard to maneuver and slew at the same time and b) and the very extreme end of the stick, where it was impossible for me to reach without completely repositioning my hand from the normal position (note that my hands are rather on the small end of the spectrum).

[joey45]

If you have the money get the Warthog.

Having a X52 aswel..

Is the number of hat switches really sufficient for hi fi sims such as the DCS family?

not enough I say

The mouse slew thingy seems rather a novelty

yes

Same goes for the LCD screen

see above

It is hard to find a good appraisal of its accuracy, but from the SimHQ review it seems less than stellar (?)

It is getting a little bit old...

The X52 reportedly has axis bleed between X and Y axis, I am unable to find information as to whether this is fixed in the Pro version (?)

I don't know...

It is considered to be loose, maybe too much so (?)

I found it a bit loose..

The X52 reportedly suffers from deadzone issues, no info on whether this is fixed in the Pro version (?)

Not sure on the pro version.

Edited January 14, 2012 by joey45

[PoleCat]

From the choices presented clearly the WH is the best IMO.

 

Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS

There are however some concerns;

 

• Reported "stickiness", could someone explain this further? Jagged axis? (No such problem with mine).
  
• May need to be lubed up (harr) several times per month (?) (No such problem with mine).
  
• May die if used without firmware update. (So obviously you should update the firmware as soon as you get it).
  
• Price!!! (You get what you pay for!)
  
• No rudder pedals included, adding signifficantly to the already high cost. (Again, you get what you pay for. Add rudders if you want them.)
  
• Obvious choice for DCS A-10C, not so obvious for other titles (even other current and future DCS titles). (A good choice for everything else too. I am using mine for IL2 Clod and X3 Albion as well as DCS titles and I am very happy with it).
  

Best of luck! Enjoy what ever you decide to get.

 

Out

Edited January 14, 2012 by PoleCat

[Cali]

I would look into CH, you can get a full HOTAS (stick, throttle and pedals) for under $330. Excellent support, very accurate, built to last, lots of buttons and no need for maintenance. Look around and make sure you do your homework on whatever you are going to buy.

 

But, from your list I would most likely pick the warthog also, but the X65 is close behind.

[Daze]

I have the X52 Pro and have no problems using it with A-10C, FC2, F4 BMS, WoP, ROF, Arma II.

[Beagle One]

I use the Saitek X52 Pro and had the X52 before...you can't compare them in quality. The Pro version is definatley PRO. Mine is 3 years old and still works precise. All you need to tweak is to use a lubricant to the centering cone from time to time.

 

I also don't see a lack in buttons or axis with the X52pro...and in case you want more you can add any additional saitek switch pannel to it.

[cichlidfan]

I moved from the X52Pro to the Warthog.

 

Do you need the Warthog? No.

 

Is it worth the difference in price? Yes, in every way, more so since I got the Warthog for only $350 compared to the $150 I paid for the X52Pro.

 

I prefer having pedals regardless of which stick so that was not part of my math.

 

You did not say, but I would get a less expensive stick if I still needed to allocate money for TrackIR, which I consider even more important!

[Sokol1_br]

Google for "Logitech G-940 reversal bug".

 

Sokol1

[PoleCat]

There is no comparison to the Warthog with any of the other HOTAS systems mentioned here in my opinion. The X-52 and 52 pro are decent quality HOTAS systems as is the CH. These are indeed well proven and less costly but older in design and concept. The WH is a cut above them in almost every area and it logically costs a bit more.

 

Once you put your hands on a WH I believe you will understand and feel the difference immediately. I would be willing to bet you would be drawn right to it over any of the others regardless.

 

The WH simply kicks ass.

 

Out

[cichlidfan]

There is also something to be said for a throttle that weighs almost as much as my UPS!:D

[Total]

You forgot a setup:

 

CH Products Fighterstick and Pro Throttle

 

The stick has all of the hats and switches that the Warthog has.

The Throttle has enough hats and switches to accomodate.

Design of both units has been proven for long term reliability.

 

The only draw back is that it has a one stage trigger. Shifting the trigger enages PAC.

 

Profiling software not only can enage key presses but also accomodates scripting commands.

 

Cost of both units combined is around $200 new.

 

You will need rudder pedals.

[Slash]

I've had them all, over many, many years. Thrustmaster is by far the best product in terms of overall precision and product quality. You do in fact get what you pay for. One man's humble opinion.

TM A-10 HOTAS,

Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals,

2 x TM MFD,

TrackIR,

3 x 24" Dell Precision widescreens,

 

*******Looking for a group of guys on West Coast USA ideally (for ping) to fly with. Just bought A-10C and intend to learn it.*******

Edited January 14, 2012 by Slash

[mjeh]

You forgot a setup:

 

CH Products Fighterstick and Pro Throttle

 

I would look into CH

 

Indeed, I totally forgot about the CH one! Sadly though, I can't find anyone who deals them here in Norway and would have to import so the cost would exceed that of a TMWT with rudder pedals. If I'm splashing that much cash anyway, I might as well just get the TMWT since I mostly fly the hog :) Shame really, the CH products seem thoroughly solid

 

 

I also don't see a lack in buttons or axis with the X52pro...and in case you want more you can add any additional saitek switch pannel to it.

 

This is true, but it kind of defeats the purpose of a HOTAS in the first place if you have to move your hand away from the throttle all the time.

 

I moved from the X52Pro to the Warthog.

...

You did not say, but I would get a less expensive stick if I still needed to allocate money for TrackIR, which I consider even more important!

 

How would you compare the two if you were to be a bit more specific? And yes I completely agree, the order of business is DCS -> TrackIR -> HOTAS. Already got the TrackIR down :)

 

Google for "Logitech G-940 reversal bug".

 

Sokol1

 

nasty business :(

 

There is also something to be said for a throttle that weighs almost as much as my UPS!:D

hehe, indeed!

[PoleCat]

You forgot a setup:

 

CH Products Fighterstick and Pro Throttle

 

The stick has all of the hats and switches that the Warthog has.

The Throttle has enough hats and switches to accomodate.

Design of both units has been proven for long term reliability.

 

This is like saying that a rolls royce and a hyundai both have four wheels so they offer you the same ride. The CH may have the same number of hats and switches that the WH does but the hats and switches on the WH are of superior quality to the CH.

 

CH users always post of durability and value. Both strong points of this HOTAS, and I can't deny the awesome programming capabilities of the CH. But you really have to leave it there because if you begin to have a discussion about materials, construction, mass, feel, and authenticity of design there is certainly no comparison to the Warthog. (I also like the Cougar better than the CH for mostly the same reasons).

 

The CH is great and reliable as hell. A really decent old HOTAS but it does not compare at all to the WH. Completely different species. Try them and see.

 

Out