Are the controls too touchy?

[MadTommy]

Ok, I see this is a time to clear things up.

First of all - the elevator movement is the same real Mustang has. You surely can use curvature for the joystick axes but I must say that you spoil the stick feeling of the real plane.

Of course real stick has more travel than joystick... but I think that artificial nonlinearity is worse than a scaling.

I think nobody uses 100% fuel loading in ME. Having 100% of fuel you almost have no ability to maneouver the plane because of aft balance and extremely low stick travel per 1 g.

So I never use non-linear stick curves for AFM since Su-25 arrival.

I use CH rudder pedals that is not significantly better than Saitek. The main problem at TO is not the pedals itself. Using rudder you have to anticipate plane movement and not to fix its attitude only. I mean that you must counteract not only attitude but yaw angular speed firstly acting like a damper. Never hold rudder deflected waiting for the nose position reaction - be ready to apply opposite rudder to stop its movement.

When you are raising the tail apply right rudder simultaneously - it's better to release it if you overshoot a little - and then be ready to apply opposite rudder as you are stable in two-point attitude because of reduced P-factor.

 

And do not raise the tail too fast - the faster you do it the more right rudder you have to apply.

Anyway, you can use 100% of TO ASSISTANT to see how it controls the rudder.

 

Thanks yo-yo.. but all you have managed to do i show me how little i know and understand! :music_whistling:

[Dimebag]

Hey droz

 

I have a G940 too, and I have/had the same problem you discribed. I 'hope' this has something to do with the fact that the G940 is a FFB stick and FFB is still WIP.. But I have my doubts.. Not in the game but with the stick itself.. IMHO the G940 'system' is about the worst thing thing I have ever bought for flight sims.. The rudders and throttle were crap from day one.. And up to now the stick itself has been ok with other games (IL2, CoD, BS, etc).. So I hope this is not a case of this stick is just going to suck with DCS P51 (fingers crossed)

 

But I digress

 

The work around for now is to not move your still much.. That is to say don't even try to use the full X Y range of your stick.. I only use about 10% of the range now and have found that is all I need.. It takes some getting use too.. in the heat of a battle you want to keep pulling.. but don't and you won't wallow around like a stuck fish! ;)

 

I also have the g940 and have this same problem in hard maneuvours such as quick snap rolls and pulls. I am unsure whether it is just the AFM itself or some other problem, but it sure is annoying during a turning fight to start floundering around while you get shot up.

 

On another note, when they finally do get the ffb going, it will be truly interesting to see if they include stick deflection from control surface movement.if they include this, it will be Ike trying to wrestle an anaconda :joystick:

[Ramstein]

the stick thing, yes, some sticks need tweaked because of sensititivity, I have shaking hands, so you might imagine how much fun that isn't..

 

as far as the enemy AI plane goes....

I think Oleg got into the code and made that into a joke...

 

the only way to fight that it bring his arse down to the deck so he can't fly a super fighter on Ace x12.....

 

then you can now just try to get a few shots in a turn fight... the you will need to scissor, drop your throttle, lower speed, to prevent blackouts..

 

I think the ai enemy is set to 120%, it sure seems that way...

:joystick:

[cagrimes]

Thank you EricVon, I've been pulling my hair out for a long time but after following your lead

Of a +20 Curvature in X,Y, and Rudder the Sky is Mine.

 

Chuck

[kubanloewe]

Sidewinder Force Feedback2

X and Y to 20% and rudder to 30%

 

very good and Force Feedback works also well.

 

In Dora i have Y to 25% because she is sluggish in that direction like in IL2.

 

SU25T same as in P51...very good

 

i cant agree with Yo-Yo because a Pilot dont need 100% deflection in over 90% of flight time so a higher resolution between 0-50% is useful and regarding our short sticks i find more realistic.

[kubanloewe]

the stick thing, yes, some sticks need tweaked because of sensititivity, I have shaking hands, so you might imagine how much fun that isn't..

 

as far as the enemy AI plane goes....

I think Oleg got into the code and made that into a joke...

 

the only way to fight that it bring his arse down to the deck so he can't fly a super fighter on Ace x12.....

 

then you can now just try to get a few shots in a turn fight... the you will need to scissor, drop your throttle, lower speed, to prevent blackouts..

 

I think the ai enemy is set to 120%, it sure seems that way...

:joystick:

 

 

FM of AI is out of reality and FM for human.

Play against humans Online and you got results and pretty good fighting as long as you can spot your enemies Dot :mad:

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

what Yo-Yo said about the x and y axis is i think also true for the rudder axis.if you leave it at default linear curve, at first it will feel very reactive and it will probably take a while to get used to and to avoid over-reacting.but once you get the feel for it, it becomes very intuitive.

i avoid any curvature on any axis and dont have any trouble.

the advantage of using linear settings for the axis is, that you have more precise control at the ends of the axis,...where it matters, close to stalling.so you will be able to fly the plane closer to the edge. (no not 2.0)

 

but it will give you also another advantage...like Yo-Yo said, with linear inputs you will get a better resemblance to what the real aircraft feels.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

The yaw axis on fixed wing real aircraft is usually a lot more stiff that either roll and pitch.

 

I also found it a must to set the axis non-linear.

 

In DCS World p51d I used a 20% non-linearity for the yaw axis.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

yeah i know that most disagree with me here, and prefer it like you jcomm.all i know is after getting used to it, i would never ever even consider to use a curvature setting for my rudder axis again.

[TwilightZone]

after reading the last few post, i had to go in game to check mine to see. i know had curve for rudder around 18% or 20% for both the 190 D9 and the P-51 way back........currently at 0% now. when i first started with both planes i remember thinking how twitchy and over reactive they are......and now......with a bit of practice and time.......i like the rudder response set at 0%.......:-)

[HotTom]

I'm using the G940, any suggestions for settings?

 

I have a G940 and use no curves. You shouldn't really need them with a force feedback stick. The P-51 takes a gentle hand.

 

How many hours do you have in the P-51? Takes time to build muscle memory.

[nervousenergy]

I'm not sure what options exist (if any) for Saitek or CH sticks, but if you've got a Warthog the best thing you can do to increase your control is extend it. I put a simpit 8cm extension on mine, and it's hard to overstate just how much of a game changer that is.

 

The real sticks in these planes had a ton of throw. You're not going to get a 3' floor mounted stick unless you drop mid-4 figures on custom gear, but an extended 'hog gets you most of the way there, at least from a feel perspective. You won't need or want curves, and the control at the extremes is amazing.

[shagrat]

I'm not sure what options exist (if any) for Saitek or CH sticks, but if you've got a Warthog the best thing you can do to increase your control is extend it. I put a simpit 8cm extension on mine, and it's hard to overstate just how much of a game changer that is.

 

The real sticks in these planes had a ton of throw. You're not going to get a 3' floor mounted stick unless you drop mid-4 figures on custom gear, but an extended 'hog gets you most of the way there, at least from a feel perspective. You won't need or want curves, and the control at the extremes is amazing.

 

A TM HOTAS Warthog or Cougar stick can be extended for 100+ EUR in parts and some handy craft.

 

A modified PS2 cable, some pvc or aluminium pipes, some Gardena hose extenders, an industrial level spring, some stuff from the hardware store and some creativity and dremel tools. :joystick:

 

The result!

Edited November 10, 2014 by shagrat

[BitMaster]

One would have to actually measure the throw of the control surfaces at given stick travel points on the RL P-51 and counter-check them with the game throws at the same stick deflection.

 

The linkage would need to be 90° all over the place to be linear and even then it is anything but same throw with same deflection at the end of travel, basic physics. So there is a trap built into physics and if you assume ⅓ of travel at the last ⅓ there is is the same as the first ⅓ of travel is BADLY wrong. You would have to have curve shaped swivel mechanism to counteract the 90° nature of the beast. The stick by nature and straight axis gets more or less very insensitive towards EOT and is most responsive around 0-point. There is a smoothing built in by nature.

 

My setup is usually ⅓ degression / flatter curve on all AC but I have exceptions. The more agil the plane is the less you should use degression but train your skills. The snappiness gets lost if you tame it too much and the Su-27 as of now is a good example when you should have VERY fast ailerons when high AOA & SLOW, its very hard to keep her steady with softened throws.

 

Resume: By applying a softened/degressive curve you basically try to get back to a linear curve that the laws of physics have taken away. With about ⅓ degressive curve and 90° linkage you more or less have the same throw on your surface per inch pulled all over the stick travel. You will have to play with it and develop some sensitivity to figure it out. I learned this by scratch building Balsa planes and hooking up servos and linkages, studying books and RL examples.

 

Bit

Edited November 10, 2014 by BitMaster

[BitMaster]

Can a developer comment on how stick travel is handled ?

 

I mean, if the nature of correlation between stick travel and surface throw is mapped 1:1 then it might not be how the real linkage transmits movement in terms of gearing as there is a dynamic

function in this movement that is very present and not minor. It actually goes from 1.x:1 almost down to 1:0.0000xxxx at the far end of travel.

 

How is that change in transmission modelled ?

 

How is the actual linkage in the P-51 set up ? Which are the angles involved in the linkage ?

 

 

Bit

[shagrat]

Keep in mind, that the stick axis are not translating to the control surfaces directly! The developer usually models the behaviour of the stick into the simulation.

If you pull the stick 1/3rd of its way of travel the input to the control surfaces in the SIM should be as if you pulled 1/3rd of travel in the real plane.

The problem is, a standard joystick has a throw of a few inches. When you need to give a 5% travel throw input it is about millimeters where in the real plane it is about a few centimeters...

 

That is, why an extension to the stick works so well.

 

Edit: so when tweaking the axis you actually "manipulate" the translation to the control surface. As it gives you more precise input around the center it makes it difficult to control fine changes at the end.

Imagine the rudder for taxying or when braking with a "slip" you do want to have precise control near end of the rudder when slipping on final approach... it is difficult enough without axis tweaking.

Edited November 10, 2014 by shagrat