Finding and dealing with anti-air

[gachatar]

Hello,

 

In the last week or two I got through most of the basics. I know how to use each weapon, roughly know what each instrument does and can complete the first two instant action missions with ease.

 

Now I feel that I hit kind of a wall. I started the campaign, and I feel pretty much useless on the battlefield. There are lots of units on both sides, and I can't find a way to find the important targets. There are just too many enemy units all around the place. In the instant missions, I only had to deal with a single enemy group at a time, with only one or at max two anti-air units which were very close to the steerpoint, so I could find them with the TGP easily. On the first campaign mission as soon as I get within 15nm of the target area I'm instantly spotted by at least 3 radars, and there are plenty of AAA all around the place.

 

I'm not sure how should I begin to find the AAA and SAM among all the other units like APCs and tanks. Slowly looking through the ground with the TGP is awfully slow: I have to zoom in on every single vehicle to visually identify it, since 80% of the enemies are tanks, which I mostly ignore (I wouldn't have enough mavericks to kill a third of them anyway). It's also a problem that they are often hiding near buildings of the town, which makes it extremely hard to spot them. Is there a better way of finding the dangerous targets to take them out? Every time I do this mission I either spend 15 minutes circling around the place, trying to spot targets while the other A-10s and AH-64s are zipping around the place, cleaning up, or I go in too and get shot down.

 

What I'm looking for is some advice in basic tactics in how to approach a battlefield with AAA and SAM scattered around.

[ralfidude]

not really

 

 

I learned to just do it the hard way, look through the TGP and find the bastards.

 

 

Later on you can also do it yourself by getting yourself shot at so you can visually see the rocket motor of the missile and you will know where hes at, but then you need to dodge it too hehe.

 

Other option is to do the above, but have a buddy take the fall for you while you look for the launches and attack them as they shoot.

[G-Lock91]

You could do the easy thing and just avoid em all together!

[Eddie]

You could do the easy thing and just avoid em all together!

 

Indeed. Forget the air defences and do what you're there to do, take out the enemy armour and other combat assets that represent a threat to your ground forces.

[Slayer]

Radio back to command and ask why an A-10 is being tasked for a WW mission. That stuff should be dead before you are ever sent in to take out tanks.

 

Not really the A-10's mission but it can be done with lots of practice. Stay low and use terrain if you can. If it's an open area .....well it's probably a suicide mission.

 

Probably just bad mission design....

[slug88]

Use your radio. Call SEAD to take out enemy air defenses, and call JTAC for target tasking.

[Rusty_M]

If they're short range SAMs, stay high where they can't hit you (look out for spikes from enemy aircraft though)

[112th_Rossi]

The way points will usually tell you the general area where the targets are.

 

Look for Fence, IP and Target (usually named what you're looking for). If JTAC is available, loiter around IP and call them up for target tasking.

[Bushmanni]

Finding targets with TGP or "eyes" is a skill that needs to be practiced to get good at it. Besides using proper technique your image processing circuits in the brain need to be teached what to look for in order to spot quickly the things you want to find.

 

When you scan with TGP be systematic and use some kind of pattern that minimizes looking at the same piece of ground twice. Move the TGP incrementally in small hops instead of constant slow slewing. Create a practice scenario where you know roughly where the enemy units are and use it to find a proper scan speed that's as fast as possible but slow enough that you won't miss anything. Besides smooth zoom TGP has two master zoom levels that can be switched between quickly. Use the wider mode for scanning and when you find something suspicious you can quickly switch to narrow mode to see what it is. You should also recognize and accept that this is going to be slow but when you get good at it it's not as slow as you might think.

 

When you search for enemy closer than about 5-8 miles it's better to use "eyes" ie. use narrow view zoom and start scanning the ground. Your eyes vision is sharpest at the center so use similar scan pattern as with TGP to move the center of your gaze on the ground. Ground units will be only 1-2 pixels wide dots on the ground so in order to spot them you need to put your sharpest part of your field of vision on them to pick them out.

[Eddie]

Radio back to command and ask why an A-10 is being tasked for a WW mission. That stuff should be dead before you are ever sent in to take out tanks.

 

When it comes to long rang and most medium range system the above is true. However the A-10 would very much be expected to operate in an environment defended by short range air defences. If you think the SEAD jets are going to spend their time hunting SA-19s, you're in for a shock. And even if they did, the enemy would replace them almost as fast as they can be taken out.

 

You don't just sit on the ground in the bar until anything that could kill you is gone, you adjust your tactics to suit the threat situation.

[WildBillKelsoe]

There are lots of units on both sides, and I can't find a way to find the important targets. There are just too many enemy units all around the place.

 

To kick off, there is no 'important' target in the campaign per se. You are an A-10C Pilot. Your job is to neutralize enemy armor and troops. AAA/MANPADS/SAMs are the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence) package duty. Neither should you engage slow moving aircraft just because they present a favourite aspect (cold)<- That is the CAP (Close Air Patrol) duty.

 

In the instant missions, I only had to deal with a single enemy group at a time, with only one or at max two anti-air units which were very close to the steerpoint, so I could find them with the TGP easily. On the first campaign mission as soon as I get within 15nm of the target area I'm instantly spotted by at least 3 radars, and there are plenty of AAA all around the place.

 

Are you working with the JTAC? He's the one one the ground directing you. FAC = JTAC = Forward Air Controller. Difference is, you being the package, and not the top of the food chain. Understand your role.

 

Slowly looking through the ground with the TGP is awfully slow: I have to zoom in on every single vehicle to visually identify it, since 80% of the enemies are tanks, which I mostly ignore (I wouldn't have enough mavericks to kill a third of them anyway).

 

The sim is based on reality. If you watch footage of TGP from Afgha/Raq, the guys on the ground literally direct the guy in the air. You're not supposed to arrive when these threats are up. This is not modelled in the campaign. For it to be modelled, the entire campaign schedule has to start way before your mission is a go. The only remedy, would be to circle around, and buzz the folks underground while waiting for target packages to come over the radio. Why? Cuz that is your job. You wanna find targets faster? Get a hold of the LORAD/SHORAD/MERAD/MANPADS? Get in touch with the JTAC as soon as your mission starts. Pay attention to the remarks portion. use the TAD/Hook/Curs to know location based on JTAC remarks.

 

If he sez North SA-9, 1 nautical it means to the north of the JTAC SPI, 1 nautical mile, lies a vicious SA-9. That is a surplus. If you wanna engage it and shorten firing time, be my guest. But from realism point, you're not doing the correct job. you're doing someone else's job.

[gachatar]

Thanks for the replies. I think my biggest mistake was not working together with my allies enough and trying to do everything alone. I'll try to communicate with JTAC more and see how it goes. I guess I'm not used to games where I have useful AI units on my side. In the campaign, can I actually rely on SEAD to eventually take out the enemy SAMs for me?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Thanks for the replies. I think my biggest mistake was not working together with my allies enough and trying to do everything alone. I'll try to communicate with JTAC more and see how it goes. I guess I'm not used to games where I have useful AI units on my side. In the campaign, can I actually rely on SEAD to eventually take out the enemy SAMs for me?

 

Yes, but you have to edit the missions individually. Sometimes, the SEAD package will bomb specific areas, and not units right in the vicinity. Call it a 'Fire at Point' bug. Just drag the target markers over the appropriate units, and save the missions. Now you got yourself a working SEAD package, less worry about SAMs. Go get them! Make pop proud!!

[Slayer]

When it comes to long rang and most medium range system the above is true. However the A-10 would very much be expected to operate in an environment defended by short range air defences. If you think the SEAD jets are going to spend their time hunting SA-19s, you're in for a shock. And even if they did, the enemy would replace them almost as fast as they can be taken out.

 

You don't just sit on the ground in the bar until anything that could kill you is gone, you adjust your tactics to suit the threat situation.

 

At 15nm I assumed it was something different than a SA-19....yes they can detect you that far out but their missiles are only effective to like 6nm or so~depending on which version is modeled in the game. In that case not so hard to take out with an A-10..

[Eddie]

I used the SA-19 as an example. ;)

 

You can operate in a LORAD & MERAD environment in the Hog, and as has been mentioned many times Hog pilots trained (and still train) to operate a very low level specifically for that reason.

 

As for taking out MERAD/LORAD in the Hog, of course it's not something they be tasked with as a rule, but during the first gulf war A-10s were tasked to take down SA-3 sites. So while not a primary role by any means, when it comes to combat you use what you've got.

 

EDIT:

 

An example of specific tactic for dealing with Zeus and Gecko systems can be seen in the pic below, and the same tactic can be adapted for use against other systems. Although that said, don't go looking for a fight if you don't need to. The best way to defeat air defences is always avoidance.

 

Edited June 14, 2012 by Eddie

[slug88]

Yes, but you have to edit the missions individually. Sometimes, the SEAD package will bomb specific areas, and not units right in the vicinity. Call it a 'Fire at Point' bug. Just drag the target markers over the appropriate units, and save the missions. Now you got yourself a working SEAD package, less worry about SAMs. Go get them! Make pop proud!!

 

I haven't flown more than a dozen or so campaign missions, but I've never had to edit the missions to get SEAD to work properly.

[Azazel]

Here's my TTPs for SEAD in the A-10c

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72951&highlight=SEAD

[WildBillKelsoe]

Here's my TTPs for SEAD in the A-10c

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72951&highlight=SEAD

 

There was a thread (old) discussing how to use the TAD, and RWR to reverse-plot the pinger. Pretty much like submarine target course plotter, but the ship with a sonar direction finding and ranging, reverse workflow. Someone with more RAM: BRAIN ratio will fill you in.

 

And Eddie, where can I find more of these images like the one you posted? Is it a book? Or you made it up all by yourself?

[Harzach]

There was a thread (old) discussing how to use the TAD, and RWR to reverse-plot the pinger. Pretty much like submarine target course plotter, but the ship with a sonar direction finding and ranging, reverse workflow. Someone with more RAM: BRAIN ratio will fill you in.

 

SAM Triangulation

[Gisen]

More hints for OP:

When looking for SAM threats, think about the layout of the blobs you are seeing on the TGP. If there are 3 or 4 in a widely spaced line, closest to your own troops, they are almost definitely a line of tanks. Short range IR SAM or AAA defence usually sits a few hundred metres behind them, a single shilka, sa9 or sa13 usually.

 

Further back from the front line, or off to the side is usually artillery, which again have their own distinctive layout of a line of artillery and another line of smaller blobs, the ammunition vehicles and command post.

 

Further back still are the medium to long range sams. Again single units or a distinctive group depending on what they are (EG BUK has at least 3 vehicle, TOR 2)

 

 

Another tip is to watch the TAD for friendly SPIs when they call on the radio that they are engaging or detected AAA/ SAM. You can hook their spi and slave the TGP to have a look.

 

Also, when you hear a missile launch, if it wasn't from friendly airplane then look at the direction from the Missile Warning System and see if you can look out the cockpit to where it came from, and identify the general launch area. You can then get your TGP over there to have a closer look.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Gisen

[WildBillKelsoe]

SAM Triangulation

 

Yep, that's the one. Thanks Harz.

 

EDIT:

 

To OP: I suggest reading Lock On flight manual, particularly, the section about combat tactics and manoeuvers.

Edited June 14, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe