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The Cube


Flim

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Hey guys,

With what Bhawthrone is doing it has motivated me to start a thread on what it would take to build a Cube projection visual.

Basically, I’m planning 4 projectors projecting each 90 degrees around you. The visuals are planned to be in HUD only mode for the best performance. I will have a touchscreen multi-use cockpit running Helios on a networked second PC.

There is a 5th projection considered for the top view depending on performance. It will help when DCS decides to update the engine where we can use multi-channel view setups like prepar3d and other professional simulators.

I'm hoping this can be a combined effort to see if a 360 degree view is possible with the current DCS code. In December I will have a perfect dark room to test, but until then we need to get the viewport code and .lua setup required. Any suggestions or input will be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping we can come up with a complete setup which will allow feature pit builders to quickly reproduce this setup with ease.

 

As a bonus, I know PeterP has a way to remove onscreen HUD data to a small LCD reproducing the HUD image… It will be my goal to build a functional Heads-Up-Display. I have built this in the past and worked really well. The main thing is have a way to invert the image to the glass with software/hardware. Lastly, it could be a small challenge lining up the real HUD to the projection display, but I’m confident we can get close.

 

Updated Material list 7/4/2012

 

-Projector- 5 Optoma GT720

-Tendo rear projection screen stretch fabric by Rose Brand


Edited by Flim
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First questions:

 

Dimensions of the room/projection space ?

Planar or spherical?

Should the projection be direct or by a mirror?

example >>>http://paulbourke.net/miscellaneous/domemirror/uprightdome/

 

- so we can brainstorm about how the projection has to be divided to fill the whole space.

 

 

Are you thinking also about alternatives - lets say a projection like this:

horizontal 270°

vertical -70° + 120°

 

 

BTW:How To :HUD Export A10C DCS-World for Real HUD


Edited by PeterP

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The thing you have to worry about the most is the top projection and head clearance. I'll need to bounce off of a mirror to get it projected correctly. Probably fab up something based on similar Mylar material for the top mirror to bounce to the top screen surface to what Gene Buckle uses for his project but re-purposed a bit differently. That's why I'm humoring 2 meter ball and not 3 meter. If I was smart I'd just build a shed out back in the yard and do 3 meter, but I'd like something a bit more portable and temporary.

 

One advantage you have with flat panels vs the spherical I'm doing is you have no need to edge blend. The flat panel surfaces are all 90 degrees to each other and significantly simpler to align with a pre-warping utility. You only have to dial in the corners of the projection area. My reasoning for going spherical is to do away with surface distortion and ensure a seamless experience. Right now it's all theory though and your flat design is much more plausible to build in short order. Personally, I suggest you use Tendo rear projection screen stretch fabric by Rose Brand. It comes in 122" width and is sold by the linear yard. Just cut it to size, stretch it to your flat surface frame and rear project it.


Edited by BHawthorne
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First questions:

 

Dimensions of the room/projection space ?

Planar or spherical?

Should the projection be direct or by a mirror?

example >>>http://paulbourke.net/miscellaneous/domemirror/uprightdome/

 

- so we can brainstorm about how the projection has to be divided to fill the whole space.

 

 

Are you thinking also about alternatives - lets say a projection like this:

horizontal 270°

vertical -70° + 120°

 

 

BTW:How To :HUD Export A10C DCS-World for Real HUD

 

Beware of some of Paul Bouke's designs are theoretical in nature and don't always hold up IRL. Your link for example is an acadmic representation of how idome might work. The down orientation of the projection in that would mean instant death for it IRL from overheating. Be mindful that his papers are mostly for inspirational reference to give you ideas. Don't take them always as a literal guidebook on how to do it. In many instances his presentations are theoretical without real world examples. They make for a good starting point though. Always be mindful of the thermal characteristics of projectors and the limitations of mounting orientation. Also something never mentioned in those designs are pixel size. Be mindful of pixel density over a surface area. Sometimes these setups would only make sense with 1080p or 4kHD projectors. Not overly practical IRL. Using a security mirror is a sound design though. Just be aware of the quality of the mirror and ensure it's a first surface version. It'll require pre-warp utility but should work good after calibration.


Edited by BHawthorne
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Yeah - I know! (Thanks for making this clear - before others will take all of this literary )

 

I posted it only as example - that we have something to discuss about and get rough ideas how this can be done.

 

My idea is to project the backside via a spherical mirror - so you can use one projector for big parts of this backside projection - and can save most of the pixels for the front-side via a direct projection.

 

... well , up to now I can't tell how to de-warp everything, ...but I'm working on it.;)

 

BTW: I'm also very interested of a successfully build of Flim...

 

because what Flim wants to do is exactly what I have in mind when I'm moving to a new flat/house.

:)


Edited by PeterP

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I have a new pre-warp utility being sent to me later this week from Immersaview for evaluation and testing. If it works good for proof of concept testing on my end I'll let Andy at Immersaview know that there might be a few other people looking for 4-projector pre-warping capability as consumers. I know my Sol7 and SimVisuals builds work just fine for up to 8 projector, but they're a bit dated in build version.

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Sounds good on the new software...

 

So BHawthrone, you would recommend rear projection?

 

How close can you put the screen to the pit where it looks good? I guess I would need to build a small frame/box cube for the pit.

 

With the room size, I should have enough room to mount each projector on each wall... plus a projector inside with a mirror for vertical.


Edited by Flim
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Sounds good on the new software...

 

So BHawthrone, you would recommend rear projection?

 

How close can you put the screen to the pit where it looks good? I guess I would need to build a small frame/box cube for the pit.

 

With the room size, I should have enough room to mount each projector on each wall... plus a projector inside with a mirror for vertical.

 

I could do a bit of experimentation. I have a few GT720 sitting around and some spare Rose Brand Tendo fabric. I could make one panel for a proof of concept for you. Don't expect anything pretty, just proof of concept validation. :)

 

If you've not gotten projectors yet, I really suggest 0.49:1 short throws. The Gt720 is a 0.72:1 short throw. It has a longer throw distance than a 0.49:1. I'd only recommend the GT720 if you already have then or if you find them significantly cheaper than a 0.49:1 projector.


Edited by BHawthorne
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I could do a bit of experimentation. I have a few GT720 sitting around and some spare Rose Brand Tendo fabric. I could make one panel for a proof of concept for you. Don't expect anything pretty, just proof of concept validation. :)

 

That would be awesome!

 

It looks we could use 1024 res for each projector...

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would it be reasonable to make a single projector setup with the "same" effect with TrackIR?

 

My idea is to make a platform with servo motors with a projector on top of it. (just like the "eye" on the TGP)

The projector can only swivel to the left/right and up/down.

 

Link it to a trackIR system. And if you move your head the projector image will move with your eyesight. The in game visuals will follow the trackIR simultanious with the projected image.

The TrackIR movement ingame is limited in horizontal and vertical movement.

 

As long as you dont turn your neck as fast as roadrunner you will have something cool.

this is only a little brainstorm.

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would it be reasonable to make a single projector setup with the "same" effect with TrackIR?

 

My idea is to make a platform with servo motors with a projector on top of it. (just like the "eye" on the TGP)

The projector can only swivel to the left/right and up/down.

 

Link it to a trackIR system. And if you move your head the projector image will move with your eyesight. The in game visuals will follow the trackIR simultanious with the projected image.

The TrackIR movement ingame is limited in horizontal and vertical movement.

 

As long as you dont turn your neck as fast as roadrunner you will have something cool.

this is only a little brainstorm.

 

Projectors don't like certain orientations. You'd use an interface system similar to what CNC machines use with 2 axis and steppers though. That's a little too labor intensive and problematic for my tastes. Simpler just to get 2 or 3 projectors and call it good. By the time you've worked out all the design, labor and rework to get a setup done you could be 2 months of use into your multi-projector setup. There are no unknowns with multi-projector. I can answer all your questions.

 

Someone did try a single projector on a movable mount over on the NTHUSIM site though. Looks like he dropped the idea. It's in the setups section.


Edited by BHawthorne
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Whiskey One,

I think I got your idea

- but it is really not what you are looking for when setting this up and having the room.

- think about the servos, mechanics, noise, ect. you need - and it would take also the same great space to move this screen as for a static projection...

IMHO - better run a static projection when you are looking for the "big picture".

 

Have a lock here or wait till monitor-goggles have a reasonable price and pixel-density.

>>> Strapping a Monitor to a Helmet for Immersion

 

walker450 ! I really, really like this idea!! Hats off!

 

And I was thinking the whole morning about how to get it lightweight....

and I came up with this:

Headmounteddisplay-2.jpg

 


Edited by PeterP

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yeah I believe 3 projectors and a new graphics card will do the trick better for me. Save some more money and taking it easy is better then jumping into something that possibly causes some troubles. and you are absolutely right (never thought about it myself) that a big static picture of course is more immersive.

 

I wil follow this thread closely for inspiration! the cube idea is awesome.

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Whiskey One,

I think I got your idea

- but it is really not what you are looking for when setting this up

- think about the servos noise, mechanics ect. you need - and it would take also the same space to move this screen...

IMHO - better run a static projection when you are looking for the "big picture".

 

Have a lock here or wait till monitor-goggles have a reasonable price and pixel-density.

>>> Strapping a Monitor to a Helmet for Immersion

 

Might see what Carmack is up to on HMDs. Much more viable. He should have a HMD prototype SDK available soon.

 

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I have been watching this HMD as well! Looks great, just no High res small panels out yet to really make this useable. I hear sometime in 2013 there will be a high res solution for this.

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The problem is that his gyroscopes are only tracking a relative position -

optical devices are able to track absolute positions.

 

Would someone please pass this to him- please?

- but without this flaw I think its OK - as long you don't want to interact also with the "outside" (cockpit).


Edited by PeterP

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hehe, the more exotic this thread becomes the more interesting. We're venturing into mad scientist territory.

 

No problem there, I believe Peter has a map. ;)

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For the rear projection screen you might consider using a more sturdy material (e.g. acrylic sheet suitable for rear projection).

I use Plexiglas Crystal Ice White WM500 SC from plexiglas-shop.com for my setup. (unfortunately it seems that this very material is only available in europe)

The sturdy material gives you other options as fabric materials for building the supporting frame: I built my 3 screen setup without distracting vertical frames between the screens. You can see my 3 screen setup (but currently I use only the center screen) on the first picture in this post: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1475540

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