MANPADS

[ShuRugal]

Made a few stabs recently at South Ossetia Pirates, and I cannot for the life of me spot MANPADS before they spot me, and shoot me.

 

First time I ran the mission, I forgot to slow down and look, so I got ganked by about six missiles at once rounding a corner. Okay, that was my mistake and i can live with it.

 

Having run it several more times, however, I cannot figure out a tactic that enables me to spot the MANPADS before they spot me. I've tried coming in low and slow, high and slow, hover and drift in on the breeze, but I cannot find them before they start throwing missiles my way.

 

The most success I've had is to send wingman in on recce and let him DL targets to me. Using this method, I managed to get two before the rest nailed me.

 

What am I missing? What should I doing that I have overlooked? And, short of turning on labels, what can I do to improve my ability to pick the buggers out? I'm certain there have been several I looked straight at and never noticed because they're just too damned small...

[Mechanist]

MANPADs are allmost inpossible to spot, although they are weaker IRL. It is really hard to spot an aircraft or a helicopter IRL if you don't know where exactly you have to look. If they don't have radio communication or other spoting method, they can only beat the aircraft trails after an attack. In most cases they are attack the aircraft form behind because two reasons: It is harder to spot the missile they fired and have more chance to hit, and harder to spot them to, plus they have time to run and hide before the aircrafts returns to attack them. In helicopters the case is different, mostly because they hide in the treeline, unluckily in DCS is you can't use treelines because they see through them. So mostly the problem is they spot you easily, you can't really counter them. Also the Ka-50 does not have sufficient missile warning system to get a warning if they are fireing at you.

[july865]

use the terrain

S-turns

MK-1 eyeballs

flares

low flare count is a reason to RTB

Edited August 8, 2012 by july865

[ShuRugal]

use the terrain

got me ambushed

S-turns

i'll have to try this one, what is the goal of performing the S-turns?

 

MK-1 eyeballs

not much use, i can't see them when i'm looking right at them

 

flares

low flare count is a reason to RTB

should i just pop them continuously? what is the recommended interval doing this? won't doing this just draw attention?

 

Also, anyone familiar with labels scripting? is it possible to break down label types/ranges by individual unit types (infantry vs vehicles) instead of just air/ground/sea/missile?

Edited August 8, 2012 by ShuRugal

[july865]

plan your mission and general location of the sa-18 positions in the planner

at the start if your attack run

flare

egress.

more flares.

use the terrain... ie buildings, hills..... not trees....lol

S turns to spot the SA18 launches. MK-1 eyeballs. remember their location, a few gun rounds will take care of them.

rinse n repeat

or you can bunny-hop your way in. its longer, but tactful.

[ShuRugal]

okay, this is getting ridiculous. I managed to identify every Igla site in the target area from a safe range, marked them all, and began eliminating them one at a time in order of nearest proximity.

 

While i'm attacking the first site, the second (which am still 5-6 km away from) starts pumping out an igla every 5 seconds or so. three of them hit (in spite of the shower of flares i'm raining out and the kinks i'm putting in my flight path), but fail to damage any systems.

I egress, manuever to attack the second site. get in gun range, hose it, and immediately catch -five- iglas from the remaining sites, not one of which am i closer than 5k to, while the site i'm 3-4k from completely ignores me. this time, every system on the helicopter (except possibly the main transmission) gets popped.

 

why the hell are these things so effective? according to the information i can find on the subject, the igla has something like a .4 hit probability against a rear-aspect target which fails to launch flares or manuever. I was head-on aspect prior to maneuvering, not skylined, launched flares, and still managed to catch every single missile thrown at me, even though i was on the extreme edge of the listed effected range of the missile.

[july865]

youll get better at it.

consider it, practice.

keep your speed up

[Rusty_M]

It sounds like Tacview could help you. You can use it after a bad mission to analyze what went wrong (although it's important to understand that it's all knowing and you're not). It does show you the engagement range of SAMs, which is useful for seeing you were in more danger than you realised.

[159th_Viper]

 

why the hell are these things so effective? according to the information i can find on the subject, the igla has something like a .4 hit probability against a rear-aspect target which fails to launch flares or manuever. I was head-on aspect prior to maneuvering, not skylined, launched flares, and still managed to catch every single missile thrown at me, even though i was on the extreme edge of the listed effected range of the missile.

 

Is he shooting this at you?

 

 

That's no normal Igla. That's the Igla's Big Brother and as such more than capable of dealing out a proper hiding up to 6000m effective range.

[Puddlemonkey]

I can't remember the mission you are trying to do but I have found two effective ways of dealing with MANPADS:

 

1. Wingman cover. If flying multiplayer, or with a wingman, you watch out for each other, one hangs back and watches for launches whilst the other flies forward. The watcher can see quite easily when one is launched, can announce it and can note where it came from.

 

2. In real life, gunships generally fly in coordination with ground troops. The gunship takes out the major ground threats from a standoff range without much effort - the armour and artillery. The ground forces move in and mop up the stragglers like the MANPADS, covered by the gunships. The gunships generally stay behind the ground troops and in areas known to be clear.

 

As you say, terrain masking leaves you prone to ambush. Something that can help with this is using it horizontally rather than vertically. If you fly over the top of the hill, you are suddenly exposed to everything the other side. If you fly around it, you expose yourself to the other side bit-by-bit and you dictate the rate at which you do so (your speed).

[Bucic]

1. Learn how to use flares pre-emptively. This should give you a hint why not after launch.
   
   
2. Learn about UV-26 programs and their effectivity. Search for posts by StrongHarm and Frederf forum users.
   
3. Learn how to use your wingman to attack an enemy currently attacking you immediately (attack my enemy).
   
4. Learn how to coordinate visual scanning with scanning using Shkval (elevation and azimuth markers) + HMS.
   

Ad.2.

The topic is to be read through and through

UV-26 programs -- any suggestions?

 

Here's a teaser...

Edited August 11, 2012 by Bucic

[Fjodow]

use the terrain

S-turns

MK-1 eyeballs

flares

low flare count is a reason to RTB

 

That's it, and:

Plan your mission

Scan the region

Dive and climb, dive and climb and mind your laser-warning system(!) Don't forget to reset.

Change your position as often as possible: "a non moving target is a dead target"

Fight the most dangerous threats first (SAM etc.)

 

Regions from where my laser cries alert and I cannot scan them (forests etc.) I use cluster bombs from great height combinded with a diving attack - that's a bit tricky but it works! And it's a hell of a flaming paradise you get.

 

Train, train, train :thumbup:

[ShuRugal]

Scan the region

 

Infantry are practically invisible, and even when they are not, I can't tell if one has a Strela or Igla until he shoots it.

 

Dive and climb, dive and climb and mind your laser-warning system(!) Don't forget to reset.

LWS is useless against MANPADS because they don't have a laser...

 

Change your position as often as possible: "a non moving target is a dead target"

Been doing that

 

Fight the most dangerous threats first (SAM etc.)

 

Did you even read the OP?

[Fjodow]

Infantry are practically invisible, and even when they are not, I can't tell if one has a Strela or Igla until he shoots it.

QUOTE]

You CAN see infantry! Often they are "walking" fast from A to B - they're for the gun...

 

And if they are armed, you will see that too. They look like undefinable small stationary vehicles. I once detected them while whiping out a sam unit and this undefinable portion was left over and shot at me - but only once...

SCAN and SCAN.

 

So, never say die, comrade :smilewink:

[ShuRugal]

You CAN see infantry! Often they are "walking" fast from A to B - they're for the gun...

 

And if they are armed, you will see that too. They look like undefinable small stationary vehicles.

 

 

Really? what ranges are you engaging your MANPAD threats from? because i donno about you, but i can't see them at all without the shkval outside of 3 klicks.

 

 

Reasonably visible there, if i happened to pan the shkval across that group at that range on 23x, i would definitely see it (unless they were hiding under trees)

 

but how far away from them can i see them without shkval?

 

6 km?

 

nope.

 

how about 3?

 

hmm, not really. definitely not if i didn't know exactly where to look.

 

surely i can see them at 1.4 km?

 

I can! but wait? does one of them have a SAM? I can't tell if they armed...

 

 

okay, yeah, definitely armed. but do any of them have SAMs? i think maybe i spot one? hard to tell.

 

but, wait, they have a kill range of 5-7 km... crap. i'm already dead five times over. :(

 

and these guys were kind enough to stand in the open on flat ground beside an easily visible landmark and everything.

Edited August 22, 2012 by ShuRugal

[TurboHog]

Use a higher resolution? I can usually spot them before they spot me if I'm scanning an area in narrow FOV. I can easily distinguish them. They start shooting at 4km maximum so you can almost gun them with a bit of luck.

[ShuRugal]

Use a higher resolution? I can usually spot them before they spot me if I'm scanning an area in narrow FOV. I can easily distinguish them. They start shooting at 4km maximum so you can almost gun them with a bit of luck.

 

Sure, i'll gladly use a higher resolution, as soon as someone buys me a new gaming rig. my laptop only goes to 1440x900

[Fjodow]

my laptop only goes to 1440x900

That's no machine for a sim like this :cry:

 

But besides this: Now you also can spot the infantery! That's a good start.

Now it's up to you to fool them with your skill and your hardware possibilities...

 

Good luck, friend!

Edited August 23, 2012 by Fjodow

[ShuRugal]

That's no machine for a sim like this :cry:

one works with what one has, we are not all made of money.

 

But besides this: Now you also can spot the infantery!

sure, i can easily spot them when i place them in the open and put a target point on them.

[Slazi]

Make sure you use the eye-zoom in game, don't stick with the default zoom level.

[crazyirish93]

personally i dislike the idea of using artificial zoom in a sim

[Puddlemonkey]

I wouldn't say it's artificial. In real life, you have the ability to see a wide field of view whilst picking out detail in the centre of your vision.

 

A PC sim must be able to emulate this. You have two options: buy a huge monitor the size of your total field of view or use zoom. The second is cheaper!

[Echo38]

Moreover, in real life you see your max FoV and your max zoom, at the same time. Even with the zoom ability, in a sim, you can't do that--you have to pick between one or the other. So P.C. monitor with zooming ability is, though as close as one can get to the real eye's ability with a P.C. monitor, very much worse than the real eye. Removing zoom takes it even farther away from reality--staying at the default zoom in the sim is the approximate equivalent of a real pilot with a backwards-facing telescope taped over one eye and an eyepatch over the other eye. In short, zooming, though not realistic, is unfortunately the closest we can get to our real-life ability with a modern P.C. monitor. Perhaps someday we will have affordable hemispherical wrap-around monitors ...

Edited August 25, 2012 by Echo38