Arma 3 developers arrested in Greece

[Pyroflash]

That's really what I was afraid of. 18 months is a ridiculous amount of time to keep two potentially innocent people in jail for a crime that they may or may not have committed based on evidence that is sketchy at best. I mean, give them a bail price, let them go home, and give them an e-mail when it is time for their trial. I doubt that they will be running off to Pakistan any time soon.. If I had to spend a year and a half in jail (sorry, not jail, PRISON) waiting for a trail based on a crime I didn't commit, there would be hell to pay when I got out.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Pyroflash

[sungsam]

No. This isn't the exact saing of law. It is 18 months limit for Authorities to prove guilty by collecting evidence. If they fail to do so or fail to present them on trial, the arrested is immidiately released. He then can practise his rights against Authorities for holding him in vain. Pretty common law to all countries I asume.

Edited September 19, 2012 by sungsam

[cichlidfan]

Pretty common law to all countries I asume.

 

I certainly hope the 18 month part is not all that 'common'!

[sungsam]

it is max limit, and rarely takes to much time.

[159th_Viper]

it is max limit, and rarely takes to much time.

 

Quite correct. It's a worst-case scenario limit to protect the rights of the individual whilst affording the authorities reasonable time to conclude investigations and the Court sufficient time to set the matter down for trial.

 

I certainly hope the 18 month part is not all that 'common'!

 

Depends on the resources allocated to the investigation and the complexity of the matter being investigated. Some clients I represented that could not make bail usually had two-weekly court appearances coupled with a discretionary 6-month limit for said investigation. Then you had the matter set down for trial which, dependant on the Court Roll, saw you at trial within a year, in which case you could consider yourself very lucky.

 

18 months is reasonable.

 

I obviously missed this, but has there been a formal bail hearing in this matter? This should also of course influence the time within which the matter is set down for trial.

[cichlidfan]

I obviously missed this, but has there been a formal bail hearing in this matter? This should also of course influence the time within which the matter is set down for trial.

 

The bail issue is what hasn't been mentioned. I agree, 18 months to get to trial is not unreasonable.

[Eight Ball]

One thing I don't understand is how come the Greek authorities are allowing visitors to people they've just charged with espionage ?

 

Also, from a Czech newspaper, posted on armaholic and translated by deadfast :

The situation of the arrested has been significantly complicated by the strike of judges and judicical personel. The strike will last at minumum five days but could stretch up to a month. The appeal that the lawyer of the two has put in has been put on hold indefinitely.

:censored:

Edited September 19, 2012 by Eight Ball

[sungsam]

What is it you can't understand ? Since when you are in position to know if Greek Authorities allow visitor or not ?

Edited September 19, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Rule 1.2

[VAOZoky]

I obviously missed this, but has there been a formal bail hearing in this matter? This should also of course influence the time within which the matter is set down for trial.

 

I think that potential spies can't post bail :music_whistling:

[159th_Viper]

OK Gents - that is the last time this thread is cleaned up. If you cannot post objectively then do not post at all and keep the subject-matter posted to the posting of news regarding the issue - keep personal opinions/attacks out of it.

 

Next infraction will see the thread closed.

[sungsam]

Amen !

[Eight Ball]

Since when you are in position to know if Greek Authorities allow visitor or not ?

 

I never said I was in position to know anything, that's exactly why I'm asking.

 

I just don't understand that the Greek authorities are letting a stranger (Ota Vrtatko, BI spokesman) talking with guys suspected of espionage.

That's all

 

Please don't get so defensive, I'm not here to bash neither the Greek authorities nor the Greek themselves. I have no strong feelings towards the greek at all.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Eight Ball

[sungsam]

Then Please, I kindly request to try to be more delicate the way you express your saings.

 

You know Greece is an EU country with laws compatible with EU as other civilized EU countries.

 

You can safely assume what you may assume for other EU countries.

 

I can assure you that since I like to communicate with people, i can discuss with you what ever concerns you even if we disagree.

Edited September 19, 2012 by sungsam

[Pyroflash]

No one is judging Greece, we are just trying to understand the circumstances surrounding this case.

 

My first question is why civil servants are allowed to go on strike? Shouldn't the first priority be the accused? At least in the U.S., federal employees aren't allowed to strike or unionize.

 

My second question is, the devs have already been held for more than a week, so why hasn't a bail hearing taken place to decide whether or not they are eligible? If not, then that is okay, it's ultimately their decision to to what's best and what's equitable for them and the accused. I just think that it's fair that they be given a chance at least.

[Napa]

Why is the case being judged so seriously? Are the Greeks so sensitive about their military objects?

Lemnos is a strategic island, Turkey is close from there, so there are a lot of soldiers guarding the objects. Another thing is that there was already a dispute about the ArmA game last year, which raised many critic reactions. Politicians from Lesbos interpelled in the parlament on this topic. Minister of the defence at the moment claimed, that they had surveyed the whole ArmA 3 project and hadn't found anything, that would harm the interests of Greece. He also added, that with the current technology, it is impossible to stop images of the Greek territory being captured. Nevertheless the affair caused that the security service is even more touchy.

 

Something doesn't add up if this is true. Hellenic authorities and MOD knew about ARMA3, and the MOD after investigation claimed that it would not harm the security and interests of Greece. Yet some politicians in the parliament are against this.. ah ok, I see whats going on.

 

Nobody can do shit about it. They shouldn't even go to that island for holidays. Greece has hundreds of islands. Yet they pushed their luck and it run out. They are guilty until proven otherwise.

 

But for the sake of freedom and free speech please keep the pressure on Greek authorities to expedite the trial as soon as possible. If they are innocent, which I'm sure they are, they will be free.

[Eight Ball]

About the strikes :

Greek judges stop work to portest austerity

A 40% cut in their salaries in quite something. Everyone knows that underpayed judges greatly endanger the independence of justice.

[EtherealN]

Regarding max limits - with the caveat that I'm obviously not a lawyer - as far as I know Sweden actually has no limit, at all. (We've taken flak from human rights organizations for this several times.) However, what we do have is that every two weeks there is a hearing before the court where the prosecutor needs to make a case for continuing to hold the person(s), basically making the case that it is absolutely essential to the investigation that the person(s) remain in custody, usually in order to avoid any risk of them interfering with said investigation.

 

The only alternative to these hearings is if the person(s) agree to continued jail.

 

If, for any reason, the case that they need to stay in jail is not made successfully, they are automatically released pending trial. Though I'm told (by a friend that works in the court system) that our jailing system is rougher than most - the only person you're ever allowed to see is your lawyer, and whichever guards take you to and from the "yard" for your 1 hour of isolated exercise per day. (And of course, you're not getting any papers, TV etcetera, it's basically total isolation.)

 

So while 18 months seems a lot (and it is), we've actually had cases in sweden where people were sat there for longer than that. Not something to envy, for sure.

[Rusty_M]

For the person asking about public sector workers striking, I don't know about Greece, but in the UK, many public sector workers are union members. If anything their unions can be more powerful than in the private sector.

 

The police are not permitted to strike. I don't know about the army, but I doubt they can strike. In 2003 (I think it was), the fire brigade went on strike, causing much worry. The army stood in for them.

[sungsam]

Greek judges strike was a warning to government and troika for the fear of justice independence. i dont think That Lemnos case will be influenced by this. It's a special case.

Police has a union but not political oriented and can strike conditionally. army is not allowed to.

Edited September 19, 2012 by sungsam

[monotwix]

Just another case of bureaucracy being out of touch with reality.

 

Upload some links of copy right on your web and face extradition to the US from UK, Why?, because of the news papers and channels are telling you some facts.

It’s a serious thought for anyone to think that in any particular case the mother of a young offender had to direct the case to the EU court to avoid extradition.

What may be legal in EU is illegal in US and the boy didn’t do nothing illegal on his own land.

How that case and many others have ended? Some one knows and it’s a long story but the moral is: the system is broken.

[Succellus]

LOL, the two of them are quite screwed.

They fell for the classic incompetent inescrupulous politicians trying to steam the pressure off their backs by alegating patriotism over a stupid matter that wanna be related to national defense.

[Pyroflash]

LOL, the two of them are quite screwed.

They fell for the classic incompetent inescrupulous politicians trying to steam the pressure off their backs by alegating patriotism over a stupid matter that wanna be related to national defense.

 

Hmm? :huh:

[Pyroflash]

 

New video outlining events.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I feel really bad for these two. I hope they never crack and return home safe. :mad:

[MemphisBelle]

Good news guys...both have finally been released:

 

http://kotaku.com/ivan-buchta/