P-51D, not boring....

[Echo38]

We (Virtual Horsemen) use curves & saturation adjustment for our formation work - it's definitely a benefit to us and certainly not harder.

 

It can make your straight-and-level formation flying easier, yes, and gentle maneuvers as well. However, although you may not realize it, it's making it harder for you to do any hard maneuvers (high-G and/or high-AoA) in formation. Reason why is: a curve borrows precision from one part of the axis to give a margin of error at another part of the axis. Your curve gives you a bigger margin of error at the center, where gentle maneuvers occur, but at the expense of precision around the 75% mark (half-way between centered and fully back), or wherever it was that you raised the sensitivity in order to lower it around the center.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Echo38

[Exorcet]

Hello Exorcet

 

Could you please be more informative about "axis saturation".

 

I have a Thrustmaster Warthog and a Saitek rudder pedals.

I am a little bit lost with these X and Y axis saturation ...

What Yoyo is speaking of are related to the Curve ( 60% on the curve line for the Pitch axis and 40% on the roll axis ) isn't it ?

Is saturation % related to speed of reaction ?

Is curve % related to intensity of reaction ?

Is it possible to tune the differential brakes sensitivity ?.

What axis is intensity related (X or Y ) ?

 

Also I read somewhere in this forum that it is not advisable to modify the curve of the axis...

 

What do I have to think about all this

 

Thank You very much for your help

 

Madcop.

 

 

VH-Rock pretty much explained it. I don't like curvature because it can make it hard to be precise. I used curvature in FC2, and this made it harder to perform sudden maneuvers without going Over-G. This is fine in FC2 because there are no structural failures in that sim. In DCS, Over-G can mean death, so I used saturation to make my controls less sensitive.

 

As VH-Rock said, there is a trade off, I lose the ability to deflect my controls all the way, but thankfully I don't need full deflection most of the time.

[VH-Rock]

It can make your straight-and-level formation flying easier, yes, and gentle maneuvers as well. However, although you may not realize it, it's making it harder for you to do any hard maneuvers (e.g. a high-G turn or loop) in formation. Reason why is: a curve borrows precision from one part of the axis to give a margin of error at another part of the axis. You've got a bigger margin at the center, where gentle maneuvers occur, but at the expense of precision around the 75% mark (half-way between centered and fully back), or wherever it was that you raised the sensitivity in order to lower it around the center.

 

It all depends on how you set up your curves ;) I can assure you lots of experimentation went into getting the right settings for us.

[Echo38]

I don't like curvature because it can make it hard to be precise. I used curvature in FC2, and this made it harder to perform sudden maneuvers without going Over-G. This is fine in FC2 because there are no structural failures in that sim. In DCS, Over-G can mean death

 

In addition to this increased tendency to over-G at high speeds, curves also exacerbate the P-51's tendency to stall and spin at lower speeds.

 

It all depends on how you set up your curves I can assure you lots of experimentation went into getting the right settings for us.

 

I'm not gonna try to tell you guys that your curves aren't helping your formation flying (they probably are, because most formation maneuvers are fairly gentle), but the indisputable fact is that any curve makes one part of the axis less precise, no matter how carefully designed the curve is. It's what a curve does, and there's no way around that.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Echo38

[cichlidfan]

The bottom line is that Echo38 is correct. Any deviation from a straight line to a single symetric curve will reduce resolution at the ends while increasing resolution at, and nearer to, the apex of the curve.

[sobek]

The bottom line is that Echo38 is correct. Any deviation from a straight line to a single symetric curve will reduce resolution at the ends while increasing resolution at, and nearer to, the apex of the curve.

 

The apex is where resolution is the same as before. :) Resolution is "shifted" from one end to the other. The resolution depends on the acclivity, it is highest where acclivity is the lowest.

[VH-Rock]

In addition to this increased tendency to over-G at high speeds, curves also exacerbate the P-51's tendency to stall and spin at lower speeds.

 

 

 

I'm not gonna try to tell you guys that your curves aren't helping your formation flying (they probably are, because most formation maneuvers are fairly gentle), but the indisputable fact is that any curve makes one part of the axis less precise, no matter how carefully designed the curve is. It's what a curve does, and there's no way around that.

 

Indeed, and I am not trying to dispute that fact in the slightest, (I even went as far to state something similar in my explanation) but 90% of the time you are no where near maximum pull.

 

Curves really are fully dependent on the end user, their style of flying and what they are looking to get from their aircraft... Personally, I never exceed about 60% of pull available to me, so for me, curves are a very useful feature.

 

In combat, I certainly wouldn't use the curves that I do for aerobatics ;) I would much rather have the full amount of pull available to me. As I said, Entirely dependent on the user and what they are looking for.

[Madcop]

Hi VH Rock

 

What an answer ... ! A real university course :thumbup:

 

Thanks a lot. It is now far more clear for my little brain !

 

I'll try the content of your lesson and will report back.

 

Thanks a lot to have so kindly taken care of my questions .

 

Madcop:smilewink:

[VH-Rock]

I'm glad that's made things a little clearer, Madcop! :) Curves are a complex thing to set up... Sure, you could through in any values, try somebody elses or take a guess at what you think will work but, at the end of the day, nobody else will know what you are looking for.

 

To me, curves / saturation should be unique to each pilot. Depending on what you're looking for will affect how you set up your curves - Much like an F1 car has it's set up changed depending on what track they are going to. I used to change my curves for Aerobatics and Dog Fighting - Now I don't do combat anymore so I don't have the need.

 

Let us know how you go on :) And again, I'm sorry for the long post, I just struggled to explain it in shorter terms

[ryanyomomma]

Welcome to a realistic flight sim.. you can always change your options to "game" so its a bit easier.

 

how can you even write off A2A like that? Have you ever watched their development videos? I still haven't seen a persistance engine with DCS, nor a sense of ownership of such a handson system.

 

Ultimately, its discouraging to see this " Call of Duty vs. Battlefield" mentality in the flight sim comminity. It's childish and really has no place. What if A2A decided to develop for DCSW, and bringing Accusim into the mix? What then?

[mmaruda]

I won't argue which is more realistic. A2A stuff is really impressive from what I see in the videos, but their Mustang seems easier to handle (this is just an assumption based on their instruction videos), for example, they say you can firewall the throttle on take-off, doing that in DCS will result in a crash. Maybe that's why people get these ideas.

 

Anyway, I would love if A2A moved to DCSW, that would mean more WWII planes (P-40 baby!) and their persistence and hangar management is really something AWESOME!

 

Imagine the necessity to maintain your aircraft in the campaign, talking to the crew chief, getting yelled at because you don't take proper care of the machine, making choices as to what to fix, cutting corenrs... That would truly make DCSW the ultimate simulation for me... That is if we could have an animated ground crew.

[Madcop]

I'm glad that's made things a little clearer, Madcop! :) Curves are a complex thing to set up... Sure, you could through in any values, try somebody elses or take a guess at what you think will work but, at the end of the day, nobody else will know what you are looking for.

 

To me, curves / saturation should be unique to each pilot. Depending on what you're looking for will affect how you set up your curves - Much like an F1 car has it's set up changed depending on what track they are going to. I used to change my curves for Aerobatics and Dog Fighting - Now I don't do combat anymore so I don't have the need.

 

Let us know how you go on :) And again, I'm sorry for the long post, I just struggled to explain it in shorter terms

 

Hi VH-ROCK

 

Well I tried to fine tune my Pitch-Roll-Yaw and Brake axis.

I didn't use curvature but choose 80 as a saturation value for a try.

BUT ,there is something my bird brain still does not understand.

For my Pitch-Roll-Yaw and brakes axis there are a X and Y saturation slider. Why ?

Can you explain me the procedure and effects.

I can see the difference when I am moving the slider from right to left. It looks to me that these Y axis are smoothness related ( a little bit like a curvature ). But I may be totally wrong.

Can we have two different value in X and Y in saturation for the same axis.?

 

I am afraid your "long" post as you named it , was still not long enough for a dumb like me !:smartass:

 

Anyway this P-51D is a real Mustang but I finally feel quite nice on the saddle !. ( The most dreadfull thing for me is still the landing. I can't help bouncing and bouncing untill the gear collapsed one side or the other.

Even when rolling quietly this horse can't help but going out the runway !.

I may use diff. brakes , full brakes , full rudder , nothing help.

I touch the "piano" at 140-150MPH with 2700RPM and 30 boost. No way.

 

I am not discouraged always hoping that the next one will be beter !.

I just hope the Air Force won't threw me out for budget reason ! :lol:

 

Thank-you again .

Madcop.

 

P.S. If you are the one who is the Il-2 skinner I take the opportunity to congratulate you. Your skins are just terrific , and I have got them all !.

[VH-Rock]

Hi VH-ROCK

 

Well I tried to fine tune my Pitch-Roll-Yaw and Brake axis.

I didn't use curvature but choose 80 as a saturation value for a try.

BUT ,there is something my bird brain still does not understand.

For my Pitch-Roll-Yaw and brakes axis there are a X and Y saturation slider. Why ?

Can you explain me the procedure and effects.

I can see the difference when I am moving the slider from right to left. It looks to me that these Y axis are smoothness related ( a little bit like a curvature ). But I may be totally wrong.

Can we have two different value in X and Y in saturation for the same axis.?

 

I am afraid your "long" post as you named it , was still not long enough for a dumb like me !:smartass:

 

Anyway this P-51D is a real Mustang but I finally feel quite nice on the saddle !. ( The most dreadfull thing for me is still the landing. I can't help bouncing and bouncing untill the gear collapsed one side or the other.

Even when rolling quietly this horse can't help but going out the runway !.

I may use diff. brakes , full brakes , full rudder , nothing help.

I touch the "piano" at 140-150MPH with 2700RPM and 30 boost. No way.

 

I am not discouraged always hoping that the next one will be beter !.

I just hope the Air Force won't threw me out for budget reason ! :lol:

 

Thank-you again .

Madcop.

 

P.S. If you are the one who is the Il-2 skinner I take the opportunity to congratulate you. Your skins are just terrific , and I have got them all !.

 

Hi Madcop,

 

I'll take some screenshots of the menus tonight when I get home from work and try my best to explain the effects of each option, it's a little more difficult to explain that without having it in front of me. If you need any help getting used to the P-51, come and join our TS server and fly with us or the VTA. Between us all, I'm sure we can give you a few tips that we've all picked up since starting to fly this aircraft. Both VH and VTA have public servers up every weekend where anybody is free to join - We also fly together a lot too, as myself have been helping out with a little formation training.

 

Oh, and thank you for the compliments on my skins - it's nice to see that they were appreciated :) I've done a few for DCS, that are publicly available, but I haven't had as much time for skinning recently so there's only 4 or 5. I'll get around to doing more I hope.

Edited August 24, 2013 by SkateZilla

[xcom]

This post has went from 'P51D boring' to axis control introduction and FM inquiry :D love it!

 

For aerobatics, i also use curveture, i find it helps ALOT in the gentle middle areas.

I guess to overcome the problem where 1 side is more gentle and other is much more sensetive you could just limit the saturation and that way "disable" the more sensetive area.

 

For Combat, It's not certain if curveture is good or not for a few reasons that i can think of -

+s

1. Curveture could help us with out middle zone sesetivity for aiming.

2. Help with making smooth changes to the plane and therefore reducing drag and overall plane high alpha occasions, this way we would gain more energy than someone who isn't using curveture.

 

-s

1. High %s of pull will become more sensetive and therefore at high G maneuvers the plane would become much harder to handle.

2. speed - while making the middle area much more gentle it will also take u more time to move the joystick to required position than your enemy, and therefore you will lose speed of reaction.

 

 

It is defenetly a change that has to be made by each individual to himself because only he knows they way he flys and which option is better.

[ami7b5]

...

JimMack says they're working on it. Woohoo! http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1578574&postcount=174

 

YESSS!!!

:thumbup:

[Echo38]

I guess to overcome the problem where 1 side is more gentle and other is much more sensetive you could just limit the saturation and that way "disable" the more sensetive area.

 

Isn't saturation the one that reduces your max available deflection? The problem with limiting your max deflection is that sometimes you really do need full elevator. Just a few examples of when I need full elevator deflection are takeoffs, stall initiation and recovery, and whenever I have severe elevator damage.

[Nate--IRL--]

JimMack says they're working on it. Woohoo! http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1578574&postcount=174

 

Note, nowhere does he say ED are working on it.

 

Nate

[Double_D]

 

JimMack

ED Team

 

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: London

Posts: 2,562

Reputation: 88

 

Originally Posted by Jordan4

Is there actually going to be a full world war two campaign with ww2 ground units and aircraft and scenery? Or will the P-51 just remain a lone ww2 machine in the current DCS environment. Thankyou.[/Quote]

 

P51D is a starting point. I am aware of 3 German AI aircraft being modelled. No details on completion dates. Similarly for 2ndWW ground units.

__________________

Having problems? Visit http://en.wiki.eagle.ru/wiki/Main_Page

Dell Laptop M1730 -Vista- Intel Core 2 Duo T7500@2.2GHz, 4GB, Nvidia 8700MGT 767MB

Intel i7 975 Extreme 3.2GHZ CPU, NVidia GTX 570 1.28Gb Pcie Graphics.

[/Quote]

 

Correct this is JimMack's post .. and I don't see him saying DCS is doing the model's..but someone is...:music_whistling:

[Wolfie]

Ok so I bought the P51 when It came out..& I've used it maybe 10 times since then. Mainly becouse of the flightdynamics I thought it would bee more stable like the A2A P51 in FSX...but this thing is just to hard to fly, to sensitive on the controls, stalls all the time, yaws like crazy when u try to shoot....not many multiplayers either.....I hope I can get the love back for it some day in DCS, but now I'm just disappointed:(

 

Uh huh, its realistic. But yeah, I'm sick of WW2. Its dead and done.

[xcom]

@Echo38 - I only suggested it for aerobatic flight, for combat flight it will totaly put you at a disadvantage.

 

BTW - how do you guys put those nice quetes with the author.... is it the regula quetes that are in the toolbar?

[SharpeXB]

Uh huh, its realistic. But yeah, I'm sick of WW2. Its dead and done.

How can WWII be dead an done? It's the greatest era of air combat the world will ever see.

And it's only been done in PC sims that are almost a decade old. It has yet to be done well. There's a whole new generation of players eager for a well done WWII flight sim who aren't going to be satisfied by last gen products. A full WWII sim at the caliber of DCS would be astounding. P-51D is a step in the right direction.

[Echo38]

BTW - how do you guys put those nice quetes with the author.... is it the regula quetes that are in the toolbar?

 

At the bottom right of the post you want to quote, there's a button that says Quote.

 

How can WWII be dead an done? It's the greatest era of air combat the world will ever see.

And it's only been done in PC sims that are almost a decade old. It has yet to be done well. There's a whole new generation of players eager for a well done WWII flight sim who aren't going to be satisfied by last gen products. A full WWII sim at the caliber of DCS would be astounding. P-51D is a step in the right direction.

 

This is exactly how I feel; I couldn't have put it into better words if I spent hours trying. I've been wanting a sim like DCS: P-51D for the last fifteen years, and I've never gotten anything like it until now. All the kids these days who think that anything slower than Mach 2 is boring, or who think that anything without missiles isn't worth fighting with, are really missing out. That's their problem, really, but, unfortunately, their demands on the market are also hurting the folks like you and me, who appreciate those marvelous birds from a time when the dogfight was king--when it was about flying by the seat of your pants, with stick and rudder and throttle, rather than programming your aircraft's high-tech weapons and computer systems to do things for you instead.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Echo38

[mmaruda]

There is a huge market part for the taking with WWII. People still stick to good old IL-2, and some are even mad enough to play Cliffs of Dover. The thing is, noone has ever done a combat study sim of WWII era. The Mustang is a great intro into this. The best part of it, is that compared to other DCS titles it's really easy to learn (at least the basics). You don't need to spend countless hours configuring a HOTAS profile, reading the manual and doing trainings. All it takes, is just about 15 minutes to learn what button in the pit does what, the rest is pure flying action. There's no DISMIS, TACAN, MFD's to learn. It's more about flying, coordination and instincts, than knowing the systems.

 

I personally had a time when I hit a boredom wall with the P-51. I knew how to fire it up, take-off, land, and do some shooting, but what I was missing, was the feel of WWII. So I started to do challenging things - crosswind landing, long flights and keeping my engine from overheating etc. And there is some much emotion to it, it's hard to describe. I felt like soiling my drawers with the first crosswind landing, which is easy as pie to do in an A-10.

 

I must say, that I am having a blast with the Stang. It really feels like a 'manly' thing to fly this. The Mustang is easy to learn and hard to master, which is what a game should be.

 

Now if only we had a proper setting for it, to really take it into proper combat, that would be something. I am sure it would attract a significant crowd. WWII birds take much less effort to get your hands around, while the real challenge comes with flying. The modern jets are all about learning the to operate systems, while flying itself is mostly a piece of cake with all the computer stuff helping you out.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that, with WWII planes, learning to fly is done more by playing the game, than reading the manual and watching YT videos. I think that this is a great thing when it comes to broadening the player-base, since it opens the door for all those who are put off by a 700-page manual before you even start.

 

That said, having a proper WWII setting, could be the single greatest thing that could happen to DCS.

[theOden]

.. All the kids ..

Elaborate?

[Echo38]

Elaborate?

 

I already did.