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Taxi Help Please!!


jjohnson241
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Hi,

I need instruction and advice on how to taxi. There must be a technique involved that so far has escaped me.

I understand that stick-forward releases the tailwheel to do whatever it wants to do (it seems). I also understand that stick aft of neutral will limit the turning of the tail wheel to 6 degrees and control by way of rudder input.

The problem I'm having is with turns sharper than 6 degrees and keeping the aircraft rolling as I turn. I'm trying to use rudder input along with the wheel brake to execute the turn. I usually end up in a dead stop before completing the turn.

I'm hopeful that an experienced tail-dragger here can give me a few tips on technique. It would be much appreciated.

Thanks

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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It's tough without pedals and toe brakes. Just out of curiosity are you aware you can apply Left and Right Wheel brakes independently ? Left Ctrl W is left wheel brake and Left Alt Key + W is right wheel brake.

 

 

Otherwise it sounds like you have the basics down. I often end up doing donuts on the runway.

 

I often just leave the rear wheel locked to 6 degrees and apply left and right wheel brakes under speed to turn more sharply.

 

 

 

 

I don't have rudder pedals in my system. :(

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy and I've had both.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Thanks for the response.

Yes, I've got a full control set-up with pedals and toe brakes. I use the toe brakes independently for the tight turns.

I find that leaving the tail wheel locked in the 6 degree limit inhibits the tight turn to the extent that the aircraft with not rotate as necessary to make the turn radius.

Watching experienced pilots (video), they seem to taxi like sportcars.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Thanks for the response.

Yes, I've got a full control set-up with pedals and toe brakes. I use the toe brakes independently for the tight turns.

I find that leaving the tail wheel locked in the 6 degree limit inhibits the tight turn to the extent that the aircraft with not rotate as necessary to make the turn radius.

Watching experienced pilots (video), they seem to taxi like sportcars.

 

 

Yes I've seen those videos as well and they steer around like a boss.

 

 

In this sim once that rear wheel is unlocked you have to be going straight for a couple of yards to be able to lock it again. Without toe brakes on my system I need to grow another arm to control brakes stick and throttle so you probably have a better feel for it than I do.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy and I've had both.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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The toe brakes aren't modelled very well, for any aircraft in DCS. In the sim, when you depress one toe brake, it acts as though you're pressing both, but one more than the other. This isn't the case with real aircraft--if you press one, the other wheel is barely affected (the only added friction on it comes from it turning). So, I.R.L., if you are taxiing along at 10 MPH and you lock one brake, that wheel will stop almost instantly but the other wheel will keep going for quite a while, with the result that you'll pivot on the locked wheel. Assuming you've got no thrust at this point, the aircraft's rotation will go on for as long as it takes for the unbraked wheel to slow down, which I'm thinking is about half as long as it would have taken the aircraft to slow to a stop with no brakes applied on any wheel. I don't know the figures, and it's been years since I've flown I.R.L., but I've always noticed that the toe brakes in flight sims don't match the real deal, and DCS is no exception.

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I will post something about that..

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Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Assuming you've got no thrust at this point, the aircraft's rotation will go on for as long as it takes for the unbraked wheel to slow down, which I'm thinking is about half as long as it would have taken the aircraft to slow to a stop with no brakes applied on any wheel.

 

No, not at all. As you already assessed, turning causes additional friction that will slow the plane down much faster. Also, as you lock one wheel, translation is converted to rotation, how much depends on how long it takes the wheel to lock, which in turn depends on where it is situated in regard to the center of gravity (if it's directly in front of the CG, all energy will be converted by the brake, if it is far out on the wing, a lot of energy will remain as momentum of inertia).


Edited by sobek

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Come let's eat grandpa!

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Well, I have few experience in P-51 yet but afaik it´s pretty similar to how you have to taxi a real aircraft. In the real thing you have to turn with pedals until its maximum, then if you need more turn you (gently) depress that side single brake. That way you get the taxi you want easily, only depending on the model you have to remember to go ahead the aircraft if response is delayed (for example Cessnas are very delayed sometimes) or not were the aircraft response is immediate. P-51 don't have too much delay, may be a bit. The better I found is keep stick back, use pedals to maximum and when needed add differential brakes. Brakes should be used with softness, if you brake all the way aircraft stops (like the real thing I have to say), if you brake all the way with aircraft stopped you'll have to pull the engine strong to move it, and that's the better way to dig up your nose on ground. Releasing tail wheel lock with sitck forward is only useful to spin the aircraft 180º (typical parking) not while taxiing, and that with care of course. Real taildraggers should be taxied always stick back with or without tail wheel lock. If you were to pay a new prop every time you dig up you will understand immediately :smilewink: .

 

On the other hand, you have the problem of every tail dragger. As CG is behind main landing gear, so behind the main friction point with the ground, it's very easy to slip and spin the aircraft. For avoiding that (taxiing, but also during take-off roll and especially while landing) you have to keep the nose in same direction of movement to prevent slip the aircraft. The better way is to taxi at relative high speed, it's easier to taxi at high speed with a tail dragger than lower speeds, trying to taxi at lower speed you have the problem. Anyway you have to watch your speed, high speed may be a person running instead of walking, but not more, and for that you don't need your engine running at high revs, only a bit for start the movement then go back to 1000 revs, just keep it moving relatively fast and you will see it's easier.

 

Easier to say than to do it, I know, but give a try that way.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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As you already assessed, turning causes additional friction that will slow the plane down much faster. Also, as you lock one wheel, translational is converted to rotation, how much depends on how long it takes the wheel to lock, which in turn depends on where it is situated in regard to the center of gravity (if it's directly in front of the CG, all energy will be converted by the brake, if it is far out on the wing, a lot of energy will remain as momentum of inertia).

 

Yeah, like I said, it's been a while, and I'm quite unsure of the exact values. "About half" is probably indeed a large overstatement, sorry. Point is, though, and stands, that it really doesn't match what I've felt in real aircraft (and observed in real warbirds); in DCS, it really does act like I'm hitting both brakes when I hit one. Very little turn from locking one brake without locking the other, but very quick slowing down of the aircraft. It wants to stop before it turns more than a tiny bit, even with high throttle settings. That's the problem--real aircraft (of all sizes and masses), upon one wheel being locked and the other free, want to turn a lot before they want to stop, which is the other way around from how it is here.

 

Part of it is doubtless due to us using flimsy plastic pedals with springs instead of hydraulic pressure, or (worse) binary switches. But I'm convinced that there's something not right with the wheel brake physics, either. It isn't a terribly big deal to me; I'd like 'em to be improved, of course, but it isn't a supreme priority. I call things like this "peripherals;" they're the parts of a flight sim that don't pertain to the actual flight process, but are simulation of other things which still pertain to aircraft operation. (Other examples include ejection physics, the pilot walking around on the ground, and so on.) It's nice when they get these right, but they aren't quite as essentail (I.M.O.) as the things that actually occur when the aircraft is flying. Ah, well. Maybe someday ...

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I'm not saying that the taxi physics in DCS are prefect, but you need to consider that the effectiveness of wheel brakes for steering depends to a great degree on the spacing of the wheels vs the overall weight distribution of the aircraft.

 

Btw., i hope you are all unlocking the tail wheel when steering with the brakes.


Edited by sobek

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

Use punctuation, save lives!

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Thanks all for the great input and discussion.

I have the symptom where the applicaiton of one wheel brake acts like both brakes are being applied.. the aircraft grinds to a rather immediate halt.

After reading the posts perhaps I'm over-applying that brake instead of the "light touch" recommended by one poster.

We'll try to practice the tail wheel locked and light brake touch approach and see how it works out.

Like anything else I guess.. practice, practice practice.

Thanks again.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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After reading the posts perhaps I'm over-applying that brake instead of the "light touch" recommended by one poster.

 

I.R.L., while being gentle is good because it saves wear on the brakes, a light touch is not remotely necessary for an effective taxi. In a real airplane, you can (and do) often fully lock a toe brake in order to get a tight turn. When doing so, the aircraft pivots nicely around that wheel, at any normal taxi speed. If you have a bit of throttle applied, you can keep up this pivot all day long. I've not only experienced this I.R.L., first-hand, in light aircraft, but also observed it extensively in warbirds, including P-51s. Stomping on one toe brake and not the other should not result in the aircraft abruptly halting with the nose barely moving to the side, the way it does in DCS. The problem isn't you.

 

We'll try to practice the tail wheel locked and light brake touch approach and see how it works out.

 

Just to be sure that you didn't misread: Sobek's post recommends to unlock the tail wheel when using the brakes, not to lock it.


Edited by Echo38
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In a real airplane, you can (and do) often fully lock a toe brake in order to get a tight turn. When doing so, the aircraft pivots nicely around that wheel, at any normal taxi speed.
Well, in my own experience in real aircraft when you apply full brake to a wheel aircraft stops... :music_whistling:And it should be that way, if not brakes doesn't work properly. Brakes should be applied gently and it's enough for turning. Also it's not a good idea to fully brake a wheel because it waste rubber unnecessarily (when you pay that rubber you really feel it... XD), and to keep the turn while applying full brake you have to apply also too much engine that usually is shortly after starting up so even if you have green (but low) oil temperature it's not the best to keep engine life as longest as possible (again when you pay it hurts...).

 

Anyway, of course every (real I mean) aircraft is different and I haven't flown a P-51 (If only), but while this simulation is the very best I have ever seen and really close to the real thing we have to look for what works for it, and when the manual doesn't work (although it works usually pretty good) we have to look for what works, don't you think? So, taxiing with stick back with pedal for turn until limit and then using brakes (like Cessna, yes) works here and it's the easiest way to taxi this aircraft. Why don't do it that way then? This is the first time a real tail dragger has been fully simulated, and a P-51 is not the best thing for an easy learning (would you try to learn a tail dragger with a P-51 in RL? I guess no... specially for the P-51 owner...), so I think we have to keep it simple. Then you can go further with advanced things.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Well, in my own experience in real aircraft when you apply full brake to a wheel aircraft stops... And it should be that way, if not brakes doesn't work properly.

 

No, when you apply full brake to one wheel while moving, with properly functioning brakes, a real aircraft loops tightly before stopping. If you're going ~15 MPH in any* reasonably sized aircraft (that is, something between the size of an Me-109 and that of a C-47) and you apply one brake fully without touching the other, you're gonna do a groundloop (or a large part of one) and then stop. You won't stop in place without turning, as you suggest you would. This is how aircraft toe brakes work. A properly functioning toe brake will lock its wheel when fully depressed (barring anti-skid systems, but we aren't talking about those), but never the other, and this will result in a sharp turn unless you have very little speed and applied power (e.g. coasting forward at 1 M.P.H. with throttle at idle).

 

Does your experience with real aircraft involve aircraft with toe brakes? Or were you in one of those aircraft with the Russian-method hand brake? Also, how much experience did you have taxiing it?

 

* Excluding bizarre & unusual configurations, e.g. an aircraft with four wheels arranged in a square.

 

Brakes should be applied gently and it's enough for turning. Also it's not a good idea to fully brake a wheel because it waste rubber unnecessarily (when you pay that rubber you really feel it...

 

I already went over this. A light touch on the brakes is good I.R.L., for these economical reasons, but that doesn't mean that locking a wheel is always bad. Real pilots very often do this. At slow speeds, or especially when you aren't moving, it burns very little rubber. In tight parking spaces, locking a wheel is necessary in order to turn tightly enough to get out. This is often done while stationary--lock one brake, apply a burst of power, aircraft rotates nicely in place. It doesn't work like that in DCS; although one can get our aircraft to rotate in place by locking one brake, it does so "jerkily" and not smoothly, regardless of how gently or abruptly the power is applied. (It also takes a suspiciously large amount of power to do, in the sim.) This is true of both our P-51D and our A-10C, by the way.


Edited by Echo38
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Independent Left and Right Brakes exist for one reason only. To turn the aircraft. A D9 Cat Bulldozer or tank uses the same principal for turning.

 

 

Since automobiles have a steering wheel you will only find one Brake pedal in modern automobiles.

 

 

The aircraft should pivot around the locked or dragging wheel and not stop quickly. That just seems like common sense to me.

 

 

And for the most part in DCS P-51 it does it's job if you have some speed

up. The plane pivots towards the dragging wheel.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy and I've had both.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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And for the most part in DCS P-51 it does it's job if you have some speed

up.

 

That's the problem, though; you should be able to easily pivot even at low speed. Even if you're stationary, a little burst of throttle should do it. Also, it should be smooth. Even with the brakes assigned to axes, it acts rather like a binary switch. And, as I keep saying, the sim acts as though the un-touched brake is also depressed--for example, if it's 100% left and 0% right, it acts as though it were 100% left and 50% right, or something like that.

 

Agh! Aren't there any real pilots out there who've noticed this? [looks around] Come on, guys, some input? I can't be the only one who's flown real aircraft and is noticing this weak spot in the physics.

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No, when you apply full brake to one wheel while moving, with properly functioning brakes, a real aircraft loops tightly before stopping.
Ehhmmmm, not last time I flew last Saturday. When you apply full brake to one wheel while moving a real aircraft skids, nose gear shimmies and she tries to get upside-down or at least wing tries to touch ground. And that's exactly what you get on P-51 doing that (plus nose digging up). I think we're talking different things. I'm not suggesting what you think I am :). Keep in mind I'm not saying you couldn't or it's impossible to full brake for a turn or something like that, what I'm saying is simply I don't do it because I don't need to, and I get same results, that's taxi to everywhere.

 

While taxiing at a normal speed if you try to make 180º (at an affordable speed!! with no engine or very low rpm as it should be taxied after initial movement) and you full brake one wheel the aircraft stops as it should be because I want brakes to stop me when I land. If you try to finish the 180º without quit braking aircraft doesn't move at all until you put a lot of engine (then you burn rubber an so). The way to do it is quit breaks, let she move, and then brake but a bit, if not she stops. And the better way is not letting her to stop but braking only a bit and letting inertia work, no engine hardworking unnecessarily, no full brake, no new tyres, no new engine, no stones flying everywhere, etc. Simple and clean :thumbup:. I do it often, runway were I usually fly has to be back tracked. I don't know if real P-51 is operated that way, but it works on DCS, that's all :smilewink:. And yes, may be theoretically you should forward stick to unlock wheel before trying to make a 180º, but if I were to had 1600HP in my nose with a tail dragger (RL I mean) last thing I would try is to forward stick and see how much I can pull until I have to pay a new prop. Bringing that to a simulation last thing I want is lose my time reflying and getting mad thinking what the hell happened.

 

 

I already went over this. A light touch on the brakes is good I.R.L., for these economical reasons, but that doesn't mean that locking a wheel is always bad. Real pilots very often do this. At slow speeds, or especially when you aren't moving, it burns very little rubber. In tight parking spaces, locking a wheel is necessary in order to turn tightly enough to get out. This is often done while stationary--lock one brake, apply a burst of power, aircraft rotates nicely in place. It doesn't work like that in DCS; although one can get our aircraft to rotate in place by locking one brake, it does so "jerkily" and not smoothly, regardless of how gently or abruptly the power is applied. (It also takes a suspiciously large amount of power to do, in the sim.) This is true of both our P-51D and our A-10C, by the way.
Well, so as I said, I'm no talking about how it has to be done but how it works right now in DCS, don't you think? :beer: Also newbies don't have it easy, I think advising them things that a confident enough real pilot can do is not the way to learn a high performance tail dragger. Things should be kept easy until you learn I think. Then you can do whatever you want.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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When you apply full brake to one wheel while moving a real aircraft skids, nose gear shimmies and she tries to get upside-down or at least wing tries to touch ground.

 

I never had a wing come remotely close to touching the ground when doing one-full-brake turns I.R.L. Never even started to--the wing didn't dip even a fraction of a degree. I wasn't going fast enough to; one doesn't attempt one-full-brake turns when you're anywhere near being fast enough to dip a wing!

 

what I'm saying is simply I don't do it because I don't need to, and I get same results, that's taxi to everywhere.

 

Taxiing in tight quarters cannot be done without the one-wheel-brake turn. If you're able to taxi without ever using a full-brake turn, then you aren't taxiing in tight quarters. Those who do need to get in and out of small spaces use full brake when necessary. It doesn't hurt the wheels or brakes if you do it at very low speeds.

 

you full brake one wheel the aircraft stops as it should be because I want brakes to stop me when I land.

 

That's what applying both brakes does. One brake = turn, both brakes = stop.

 

While taxiing at a normal speed if you try to make 180º (at an affordable speed!! with no engine or very low rpm as it should be taxied after initial movement) and you full brake one wheel the aircraft stops

 

No, it doesn't. I don't know how many times I have to say this. I don't know why you're saying what you're saying; bluntly, if it weren't for possibility of a language barrier problem, I'd be convinced that you were just making this up and hadn't ever been at the controls of a real airplane.

 

Fact: full brake on one wheel and not the other, when moving forward, and the aircraft will turn before stopping. No getting around that. At idle throttle, how many degrees it turns depends on how fast you're going, but it'll never simply stop instead of turning. Basic physics--anyone who's ever taxied an aircraft with toe brakes knows this.

 

This argument has become tiresome to me. I think I've posted enough that anyone who doesn't know how toe brakes work, but wishes to know, is warned against the misinformation and can find out the right answer on his own. Those who fly airplanes already understand, so I shouldn't need to post here again.


Edited by Echo38
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I think we are not understanding between us. We are talking different things. Don't know what you fly in RL, I fly light aircraft of course (Cessna mostly) but anyway I think I cleared my point and it's a nonsense that "yes it does - no it don't" because RL operation changes from aircraft to aircraft even for same models. As said, what I explained works for P-51 and at the end it's only a simulator (and I have flown simulators many years before getting my PPL to know the arguing for "what is real" is a nonsense) so you have to do what works for you. That's all :thumbup:.

 

And...

Agh! Aren't there any real pilots out there who've noticed this? [looks around] Come on, guys, some input? I can't be the only one who's flown real aircraft and is noticing this weak spot in the physics.
Yep you are right if you want to do what you say, I didn't said you weren't at any moment. But if you haven't flown a real P-51 you are comparing to what you know (same as I do) and you don't know real P-51 inertias or brakes power. In my experience it's normal to stop aircraft applying only one full brake and it didn't means the other are working, but may depend on model, on maintenance level, on owner own taste, etc. In your experience not. But any of us have THE experience with a real P-51, so... :smilewink:

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I have to echo what Echo38 has said. Differential brakes do not work in this sim like they do in real aircraft that I have flown, which makes taxiing in the sim difficult.

 

I find that I have to use quite a bit of power to get around tight corners, because the application of differential braking brings the aircraft to a stop.

 

Watching videos of real P-51's shows that something is off in the simulation, regarding taxiing in DCS P-51.

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Thank you, Chops. It's good to know that I'm not going completely mad. Sometimes I feel like one of the test subjects in that one psych study--you know, the one where everyone's asked to say which line is the shortest, and all the fake test-subjects point to the longer one, to the real test-subject's bewilderment.

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It's surprising the level of discussion my taxi woes have generated. Thanks again all for the input.

Echo38 more or less described the main problem I've got trying to taxi.. grinding to a halt when one toe brake is applied (yes, I've checked the axis assignments and all is OK).

Consider the "Ramp Start" instant action mission.

Parked facing the taxiway requiring a 90 degree right turn immediately upon forward movement of the aircraft to join the taxiway. No room to gather "speed".

Once on the taxiway, taxi a short distance before having to execute a 90 degree left turn to follow the taxiway to the runway. Again, a relatively short taxi distance so speed critical.

Finally, a 90 degree left turn is required once you reach the runway to position for take-off.

There are probably those reading this who can perform this taxi/turn drill with no problem.

Me? It takes me a half hour (real time) to get to the runway, if I get there.

Again, appreciate the help.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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.....the main problem I've got trying to taxi.. grinding to a halt when one toe brake is applied..........Me? It takes me a half hour (real time) to get to the runway, if I get there.

 

Ensure you axis are inverted so the wheel-brake axis do not register 100% when slightly depressed. Also, use the throttle whilst executing sharp turns where necessary, ie just 'Rev' it up a wee bit to get around tight corners and the like, as I said, if and when necessary, although it's 90% of the time not if you have adequate speed going into the manoeuvre .

 

Here's a quick track capture I converted to video in case of replay issues - as you can see throttle use coupled with varying degrees of differential braking will basically get you anywhere you need to go:

 

 

9qNYlfYQs64

 

 

Also attached find track: My version is a wee bitty later and hopefully there are no replay issues. Further, nothing has changed insofar as the taxiing dynamic is concerned so you can have a look at bring up the controls indicator to see the relevant wheel-brake and rudder inputs whilst manoeuvring and attempt to replicate, unless you can already perform all these manoeuvres and it is others you are having issues with. If so, shout and I'll see if I can assist further.

 

Track: [ATTACH]72405[/ATTACH]

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Viper,

Thanks for the track although the attachment link returns an invalid attachment. The Utube playback worked fine.

My brake pedals are inverted in the Axis set up.

Question.. do you have a response curve set for the brake pedals? Something like a linear ramp up curve that would avoid overbraking given "slight" pedal input?

Also, yoo mention "bring up the controls input".. how do you do that?

I'd love to see feedback on the screen as I set switches, levers, etc.

Thanks again

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Question.. do you have a response curve set for the brake pedals? Something like a linear ramp up curve that would avoid overbraking given "slight" pedal input?

Also, yoo mention "bring up the controls input".. how do you do that?

I'd love to see feedback on the screen as I set switches, levers, etc.

Thanks again

 

No curves or deadzones whatsoever - everything at default, excluding of course the axis inversion.

 

I'll upload the track again later when I'm in front of my PC. As for the control indicator, pretty sure it's RCtrl-Enter: Someone can correct me if I'm wrong - usually rely on muscle memory to pop it up :)


Edited by 159th_Viper

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