The AH-64 Apache Thread

[Nightmare515]

When I came to DCS World the DCS-KA50 was already in the scene, but I read that DCS worked very closely with Kamov in the process. Those of us that were impressed for the "difficulty" of the Blackshark 2, were later surprised of how sensitive are Huey and Mi-8 with inputs and how amazing are the autopilots in the Ka50 in helping the driver sustaining a hover. If we believe in how DCS do business, you can be sure that is a top level representation of the real flying model of the helicopter, based on real data and people involved in the project that has real-life contact with the Ka50 as you are with the Apache.

 

I'm curious to know your flying sim hardware and if you find or not any similarity with the real equipment that you use everyday. For example, do you use your joystick at your side? and your collective is a throttle?

 

By the way, I think this is a nice community and very eager to help in almost every subject related to simulations but they really try to gang on you if we don't use the search function ;). I told you this because there are countless threads/polls out there related to discussions about Apache (this or that version do we need), the Kamov, the A-10C (for your friend) and almost every subject. If you need any help please ask. I will always try to help. :thumbup:

 

Thanks for the kind words. I don't mind the questions at all I love being able to share the insight. I'll take a look around for some other threads about the Apache as well.

 

A friend of mine actually built me a setup for flight sims. He took an office chair and attached something on the side of it to act like the collective. I dont think he bought the collective it looks like he took some other control device and "made" a collective or something. It has duct tape on the end of it. Or maybe he did buy it, Im assuming they sell those? It works as a collective should though it controls the torque and everything. I have a Saitek X-45 joystick that I use and some pedals as well. I usually sit in the chair and kind of stick the joystick between my legs. Not the most comfortable set up but it works. It's been awhile since Ive used it all once I move and get settled Ill get it all set back up again.

 

As far as similarity to the real controls its not really the same. It's the whole muscle memory thing for the most part. The joystick doesn't sit exactly where the cyclic does in the real cockpit so it takes some getting used to. The collective in the 64 also has a bunch of different switches and functions and whatnot and its much wider and larger than the one I have so it feels different to hold it of course. I find myself subconsciously trying to flip switches with my hands on the controls that aren't there on my sim cockpit lol.

 

Not having the symbology stuck in my right eye was different as well. Just a different cross check of instruments when flying different aircraft in the sims.

 

It does feel nice to fly around and not have to wear the huge freaking alien space helmet though.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Nightmare515

[SimFreak]

How many hours do you have and are you full FMC?

[Nightmare515]

Sombody probably lost there flying priviledges after this, sry if someone else posted this.

 

A few friends of mine know that crew. The CPG ended up breaking both of his legs in that crash and the pilot got pretty banged up as well.

 

Here's the kicker, that wasn't the first aircraft that pilot crashed.

[Winfield_Gold]

Once you get your stuff set up, drop me a PM and I will treat you to whichever module you like.

 

Thanks for your recollections and perspective. :thumbup:

 

I Drive a VW Golf, do I get a module? :megalol:

[Nightmare515]

How many hours do you have and are you full FMC?

 

I'm still a baby pilot fresh from the program. I have less than 300 total flight hours including everything. We are all considered full mission capable but they don't let 2 junior pilots fly by themselves or anything if that's what you mean.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Glad to have you onboard with us. Just so you're in the loop there is an apache sim to be out "Combat Helo". Check it out

 

http://www.combat-helo.com/

 

Perhaps you can contact Hawley and let him know you're there to help at least with dynamics. I'll settle for a DCS Hi fi Apache sim any year of the century. Oh, and Belsimtek will release an AH-1G module this year. Cheers

[ENO]

Nightmare you may quickly become the most popular guy on the forums as word gets out.

 

Though it looks like it's been in the process since late 2011 I only recently learned about the enhanced capabilities of the E version / Guardian... Being brand new, are you exposed to training / famil on those versions or do you cut your teeth on the basics with the older variants and move through the different versions as you develop throughout your career?

 

Only reason I ask is it seems to incorporate some pretty innovative technology and in some situations a person might think that old habits from earlier models may be tough to break. Would there be / is there any benefit of taking guys right out of school and putting them in the new systems so they can start fresh with the new technology instead of holding on to previous techniques used in the earlier versions.

 

How does it currently work?

[Nightmare515]

Glad to have you onboard with us. Just so you're in the loop there is an apache sim to be out "Combat Helo". Check it out

 

http://www.combat-helo.com/

 

Perhaps you can contact Hawley and let him know you're there to help at least with dynamics. I'll settle for a DCS Hi fi Apache sim any year of the century. Oh, and Belsimtek will release an AH-1G module this year. Cheers

 

Id love to help if I could. My only issue is that Im going to be very busy in the upcoming months and I would hate to offer my assistance then be unable to help him when he actually needed me.

 

Only reason Im online so much now is because it's the holiday weekend and my body decided this was a perfect opportunity to get sick so Im stuck in the house.

 

Ill contact him though and see if I can help with the time I have.

[Nightmare515]

Nightmare you may quickly become the most popular guy on the forums as word gets out.

 

Though it looks like it's been in the process since late 2011 I only recently learned about the enhanced capabilities of the E version / Guardian... Being brand new, are you exposed to training / famil on those versions or do you cut your teeth on the basics with the older variants and move through the different versions as you develop throughout your career?

 

Only reason I ask is it seems to incorporate some pretty innovative technology and in some situations a person might think that old habits from earlier models may be tough to break. Would there be / is there any benefit of taking guys right out of school and putting them in the new systems so they can start fresh with the new technology instead of holding on to previous techniques used in the earlier versions.

 

How does it currently work?

 

I don't have any experience with the E models I only have experience with the D model Block I and Block II. The US Army is still pushing the E models out to the fleet so for the new guys fresh out of flight school if you are going to a unit with the E model they will start training you on the E model right after you graduate from the 64D course I think. If you aren't going to a unit with E models then you will just head to the unit. From what Im hearing I believe there is also a mobile unit of instructors currently running around the country training units in the E model at the unit itself rather than sending them back to flight school.

 

I know a few guys headed to units with E models Ill ask them what they are doing as far as the training is concerned.

 

The oldest aircraft that they use to train in flight school is the Block I. It's still an AH-64D it's just a Block I version I don't believe there are any more A model Apaches in the US anymore. As of right now all of the Block I models are being converted over to E models so in a few months there will only be Block II and Block III Apaches. They don't start us off in Block I's or Block II's specifically it just depends on what aircraft they have available that day. So one day you may fly a Block I and the next day a Block II then the next day a Block II with an FCR on it, etc. No particular order or progression or anything. The only noticeable difference in the way they fly are the birds with the FCR on them. You can feel like drag of that thing up there and it takes more power to fly so it just feels different and the power settings and numbers are a bit different.

 

I've talked to a few guys who are currently in the E model transition course and they said it flies a bit different. It has more power. You can tell it must be different because I've watched veteran 64D pilots learning how to fly it and they were having to re learn how to do certain basic maneuvers that they could do without thinking in the D model. I don't know much about the avionics upgrades and whatnot. To be honest most of you guys probably know more about it than I do from reading about it online. All I know about them is that you can control UAVs from it and they sound a bit different while flying due to some weights they put on the blades or something lol. I've seen them before but thats about it I haven't sat in one or anything.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Nightmare515

[Cali]

Thanks for your service as well.

 

I was prior enlisted stationed at Knox and Carson, Afghanistan deployment as a ground pounder, flight school at Rucker.

 

I'm still a baby pilot fresh out of the program. How about you?

 

Been working on aircraft fuel systems for the past 15 years. Worked on A-10's for 6 years, F-16's for 12 years and B-62's for the past 3 years. Stationed in Alaska, Arizona and Louisiana. Been to a bunch of different places TDY and deployed like Guam (twice) Nevada, Georgia, California and Oregon to name a few.

[ENO]

FML I can't rep in chit chat.

[cichlidfan]

FML I can't rep in chit chat.

 

Just find a recent post by the same person in another thread/section (you can explain in the rep comments). :)

[Nightmare515]

Been working on aircraft fuel systems for the past 15 years. Worked on A-10's for 6 years, F-16's for 12 years and B-62's for the past 3 years. Stationed in Alaska, Arizona and Louisiana. Been to a bunch of different places TDY and deployed like Guam (twice) Nevada, Georgia, California and Oregon to name a few.

 

Barksdale Louisiana im assuming? I was TDY down there once we used to all run to Barksdale the second we got off to escape that inhuman rundown 1940s POS place they call Ft Polk lol.

[JozMk.II]

We had the full motion sims in flight school that we used for a about a week or so. They are of course better than the non motion ones but even still it's not really "the same".

 

There was always a running gag that if you can fly in real life then you can't fly the sim and if you can fly the sim you can't fly in real life lol. It's always funny watching guys with like 5,000 flight hours try to hop in and fly the sim around and they are hovering all over the place and crashing and come out cussing up a storm lol.

 

But if DCS Huey gives you that feeling like its trying to secretly kill you then it's doing its job well as a sim. Thats pretty accurate. Sounds like DCS has done another great job again.

 

I'll try to get my stuff out of storage and try out some of the new sims. I've never flown in a Huey so I wouldn't really be able to know how the flight model compares but yeah bare bones helo's are much different than combat helos with all of the flight control assistance and stability control and whatnot.

 

One of the hardest things about learning how to fly the 64 was learning how to STOP flying. We start off flying Bell 206's (TH-67) which is a bare bones helicopter with none of the fancy computer stability control and all that. Getting into the 64 we all still wanted to fly so we kept moving all the controls and trying to fly like we were used to with the Bell's.

 

The words of my instructor still ring in my ears to this day. "We pay millions of dollars for all these computer stability controls to help us fly. The helicopter itself can fly better than you can now stop touching ****!" lol

 

LOL that bit at the end is great!

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your insight with us simmers, nightmare. :)

[Winfield_Gold]

Curious, are the gunners trained pilots as well? Are there dual flight controls for both pilot and gunner?

 

If something happens to the pilot, surely there would be backup controls for the gunner.

[Cali]

Barksdale Louisiana im assuming? I was TDY down there once we used to all run to Barksdale the second we got off to escape that inhuman rundown 1940s POS place they call Ft Polk lol.

 

Yep, Barksdale, that's sad that you guys would run here.

[Nightmare515]

LOL that bit at the end is great!

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your insight with us simmers, nightmare. :)

 

lol my pleasure

 

My IP was definitely a character thats for sure. I could probably sit here and go on for days quoting the funny things he used to say to me.

 

IP: "Man it sure is dark out here. Could you imagine trying to fly this thing without the use of the symbology in your eye man?"

Me "No sir it would be hard"

IP: "Hell yeah it would so how about you actually use the symbology and stop getting us way the **** off course?"

 

*IP opens up a random panel*

IP: "Hey come here man what is this box thing right here with these wires in it?"

Me: "Um I have no idea sir what is that?"

IP: "I don't know either. But you know the difference between me saying I don't know and you saying you don't know?"

Me: "No what?"

IP: "When I say I dont know I just admit I don't know, when you say I don't know you get an F for today because Im not being graded you are haha"

 

LOL

[Nightmare515]

Curious, are the gunners trained pilots as well? Are there dual flight controls for both pilot and gunner?

 

If something happens to the pilot, surely there would be backup controls for the gunner.

 

Yes both crew members are trained pilots. The gunner in the front seat is usually just the least experienced of the two. We all start out as CPG (Co Pilot Gunner) in the front for a few years until you gain more experience and get promoted to Pilot in Command and sit in the back.

 

There are dual flight controls. With the exception of a few modes of weapons delivery everything that can be done in the pilot seat can be done in the gunner seat as well.

 

We have what is called BUCS, Back Up Control System. The 64 uses electronically assisted linked dual mechanical flight controls. If the pilot goes offline the CPG can still fly and vice versa. If the mechanical linkage is destroyed some how then the electronic computer completely takes over flight control and the controls become full fly by wire.

[Emu]

Probably thought he was still playing BF3.

[karambiatos]

pVksKfBwORs

 

oh ye of little faith

[Akki]

Thanks for the kind words. I don't mind the questions at all I love being able to share the insight. I'll take a look around for some other threads about the Apache as well.

 

A friend of mine actually built me a setup for flight sims. He took an office chair and attached something on the side of it to act like the collective. I dont think he bought the collective it looks like he took some other control device and "made" a collective or something. It has duct tape on the end of it. Or maybe he did buy it, Im assuming they sell those? It works as a collective should though it controls the torque and everything. I have a Saitek X-45 joystick that I use and some pedals as well. I usually sit in the chair and kind of stick the joystick between my legs. Not the most comfortable set up but it works. It's been awhile since Ive used it all once I move and get settled Ill get it all set back up again.

 

As far as similarity to the real controls its not really the same. It's the whole muscle memory thing for the most part. The joystick doesn't sit exactly where the cyclic does in the real cockpit so it takes some getting used to. The collective in the 64 also has a bunch of different switches and functions and whatnot and its much wider and larger than the one I have so it feels different to hold it of course. I find myself subconsciously trying to flip switches with my hands on the controls that aren't there on my sim cockpit lol.

 

Not having the symbology stuck in my right eye was different as well. Just a different cross check of instruments when flying different aircraft in the sims.

 

It does feel nice to fly around and not have to wear the huge freaking alien space helmet though.

 

I'm really enjoying here your opinion of sim vs real world , and of course your instructor comments :lol:

 

I served in the air force of my country but only was there as a cadet. Had very funny moments with superiors and comrades (well they are funny right now, not at that moment :music_whistling:).

 

Talking about your flight sim gear, do you have a Track IR or similar? It's a 6DOF tracking device that follows head's movement as you have in your Apache. For almost all serious simmers it's a "must have" for the immersion factor.

 

As another simmer pointed out there is an incoming AH-1G Cobra being developed by Belsimtek, same guys of DCS Huey an Mi-8. It's almost a guaranteed winner for combat helos fan pilots. Some people criticise the G version (a bit old) but I like it the same as new versions. It is amazing to fly all this machines in this wonderful sim. In the end, it's not realistic trying to mimic all flying, control, combat systems of a super dupper new airframe (F-22/F-35/PAK FA...), my reason is because those are very new and has secret real systems only known by pilots or goverment. I live perfectly well with any version Eagle Dynamics wanna develop for us to buy.

[ENO]

IP: "Man it sure is dark out here. Could you imagine trying to fly this thing without the use of the symbology in your eye man?"

Me "No sir it would be hard"

IP: "Hell yeah it would so how about you actually use the symbology and stop getting us way the **** off course?"

 

That is brilliant... I could read that stuff all day.

[Akki]

Id love to help if I could. My only issue is that Im going to be very busy in the upcoming months and I would hate to offer my assistance then be unable to help him when he actually needed me.

 

Only reason Im online so much now is because it's the holiday weekend and my body decided this was a perfect opportunity to get sick so Im stuck in the house.

 

Ill contact him though and see if I can help with the time I have.

 

I hope you get better soon but in the meantime maybe we will be throwing questions at you :D

 

I think this is their YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9NRlVq7YKSwSFGe6qivN5g

 

This another one is an old WIP but I liked to watch it (it shows a 6DOF enabled and clickable cockpit)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLvCX9XXZSE

 

If you can spot this videos would be amazing to know your opinion about the systems they show.

[Call911]

Chopping wood, chopping rotor blades too. Sure not all pilots are like this seems they need to rethink the responsibility of the destructive power the wield(armed an unarmed).Just my 2 cents worth.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Call911

[ENO]

I've been really interested in reading books about the Warthog in the Gulf, FMR Yugo and Afghanistan but I haven't seen a lot written about coordination between the two platforms. I think in one of the books they had talked about working together as closer partners but couldn't quite put it in play soon enough.

 

I've read some articles about CSAR cooperation- but has there been any more development of cooperation between Apaches and Hogs in other roles in current theater operations or are they still operated independently of one another?