Trees transparent for AI units

[fjacobsen]

It is well known that AI units can look through trees.

 

In Combined arms thats very evident. While You can drive around and AI units can hide behind trees and buildings, You can not - thats a major disadvantage.

 

As I understand, Combined arms are really not meant to be a first persion shooter as it´s main goal, but the same thing is also true for flying the KA-51, A-10C and P-51D.

While it´s a somwhat less prominent issue for the A-10C and the P-51D, it´s again a real disadvantage for the KA-50.

 

Attack helicopter tactics rely on the use of terrain and feature masking, but hiding below a treeline with the KA-50 won´t help You, cause the AI anti-air units has a clear line of sight of You anyway.

 

ED- can this be changed in any way, maybe by placing a huge invisble recangular object that can restrict AI line of sight where a larger group of trees exist ?

 

FinnJ

[Beagle One]

Trees do not really exist in this Simulation. It's just a textur layer without any collision model...you can also fly through them without any collision. Im just wondering what keeps Player ground units from driving though those tree ghosts.

[fjacobsen]

Trees do not really exist in this Simulation. It's just a textur layer without any collision model...you can also fly through them without any collision. Im just wondering what keeps Player ground units from driving though those tree ghosts.

 

Thats why I suggest to add transparent "block" objects that can be placed "inside" forrests, which can block the view for the AI.

 

If this will mean decrease in performance if all forrests had to have such a block in the middle of them, then it could be placed optionally within the mission builder, only where it would make sense for the mission to block the view through forests.

 

FinnJ

[159th_Viper]

This is currently being investigated and implemented by a third-party and his terrain mod and sounded very promising at last (or so) update. I'll see if I can find thread link in the meantime.

[Nirvi]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=89199

:D

[St3v3f]

Im just wondering what keeps Player ground units from driving though those tree ghosts.

 

I do not own Combined Arms, but have seen plenty of players park SAMs in the middle of a forest, so I don't see anything that keeps them from doing so. It's a real pain in the butt to find them then.

 

makes me want to disable trees in the options sometimes....

[fjacobsen]

Though a 3rd party addon adding this sounds great, I find that it should be standard if possible.

 

As I said, it´s ok as it is now when flying the A-10 or P-51, but it´s agreat immersion killer when flying the KA-52 or using Combined arms in 1st person view.

 

 

FinnJ

[marcos]

Mountains are transparent for AI. SAMs will repeatedly fire missiles into them.

[maturin]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that making terrain occlude AI line of sight would require prohibitively complex engine re-write. Luckily, the AI is too stupid to take advantage of its omniscient knowledge of unit position. SAMs can't shoot you through the mountains, after all, and even in the case of a lofting S-300 missile, it detonates when the radar loses contact.

 

Ground unit vision through trees and buildings, however, breaks the game. It emphatically does not matter how many buttons your 3D cockpit has. If the tactics that work in real life do not work in the game, then your simulation is a failure.

 

And I know that forests could be made to block AI vision in a way that does not require a rewrite of the engine or a faster processor. If necessary, they can use the darn 2D map to check for forests between units. Raycasting and LoS checks are expensive in terms of system resources, and could be used only when needed. If collision models are a problem for trees, just assign viewblock and (plane only) collision geometry to entire forests.

[dooom]

i know nothing about code so i am hopelessly uninformed and rely only upon observation.

 

Why is it large maps like the MMO World war II Online could have collidable trees with a huge area and many players (in its heyday).

 

I know they used speed tree technology but I have never been able to discern why some can and some titles cannot.

[maturin]

Trees in an MMO are numbered in thousands, not tens of millions. They are also irrelevant to your character and computer unless you are standing right next to them. MMOs are not comparable to combat sims for a host of reasons, so think of ArmA 2, whose complex tree models block bullets and AI vision.

 

It may be that the sim's currently configured engine, which renders a lot, calculates a lot, and already runs pretty mediocre, can't sustain an added burden (witness the explosion particle fiasco).

 

Either way, CA is probably doomed to remain a half-done appendage of DCS until this is sorted out. We can spend most of our time close-in dogfighting live humans, but where are you going to find fifty humans willing to sit around in stationary tanks?

[St3v3f]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that making terrain occlude AI line of sight would require prohibitively complex engine re-write. Luckily, the AI is too stupid to take advantage of its omniscient knowledge of unit position. SAMs can't shoot you through the mountains, after all, and even in the case of a lofting S-300 missile, it detonates when the radar loses contact.

 

Even that is not necessarily true. Just yesterday I have had a BUK missile tracking me through a mountain.

[Boberro]

I do not own Combined Arms, but have seen plenty of players park SAMs in the middle of a forest, so I don't see anything that keeps them from doing so. It's a real pain in the butt to find them then.

 

makes me want to disable trees in the options sometimes....

 

I drove Strela to the forest hill. Enemy planes had to fly above such hill if they wanted to reach target area.....

 

I killed many planes, nobody noticed me heheheheh

[Megagoth1702]

Even that is not necessarily true. Just yesterday I have had a BUK missile tracking me through a mountain.

Same here. I played "in the weeds" and the SA11 was tracking me through terrain, also I got missile launch warnings while being masked by terrain for at least 5-10 seconds before missile launch, funny. :-P A LOS script needs to be running when a missile is launched. :-/

[tintifaxl]

The tree issue made Black Shark unenjoyable for me. And is very, very important to be resolved for an armor/heli sim.

 

That AI sees/tracks through mountains is new to me. Must check on that one.

[Shein]

While I fully support non-transparent trees and whatnot it'll take some getting used to... I ignore them and fly through them in the KA-50 without a thought.

In fact it happened already, I was doing the heli tutorial in ARMA2 and I smacked right into a tree and blew up and thought "oh. Right. That."

[maturin]

Even that is not necessarily true. Just yesterday I have had a BUK missile tracking me through a mountain.

Oh yeah, I know it happens. But the missiles don't hit you, do they?

 

I had S-300s launching on me through mountains the other day. Because of the lofted trajectory of the missile, they could hit me if the radar kept its contact, without line of sight. However, when the missiles lost contact with the radar, they exploded harmlessly. In a similar situation, a radar on a mountain peak kept launching on me, only for dozens of missiles to explode after a split second of flight when whatever half-assed script the game uses realized that there was no line of sight to target.

 

So SAMs see through mountains but don't kill you because of it. Players parking SAMs they control in forests is a perfectly fine tactic. However, AI ground units killing each other through trees is a CONSTANT occurrence.

[St3v3f]

I was just sayin, (some) SAMs can track and launch through mountains. And that can under circumstances lead to me getting killed, even though the missile hits the mountain as long as it is in the way.

 

And in my view, players parking a SAM in a forest is absolutely not okay. Unless there is a road through the forest, there wouldn't be a way into it in the first place cause it would get stuck between all the trees. And second, I don't think it would be able to get a lock unless the target is directly above it because of all the trees around it.

Edited November 6, 2012 by St3v3f

[maturin]

 

And in my view, players parking a SAM in a forest is absolutely not okay. Unless there is a road through the forest, there wouldn't be a way into it in the first place cause it would get stuck between all the trees.

Depends on the forest, although you have a point for much of the Caucasus, which is rugged. On the other hand, real world Georgia has thousands of miles of paved and unpaved roads that aren't marked on the map, which would allow for transit.

 

As for driving through trees, that just opens up the issue of tanks being able to steam up mountainsides with no problem.

 

And second, I don't think it would be able to get a lock unless the target is directly above it because of all the trees around it.

Without unit labels, those same trees should block player LoS though, right? Which is is why it's more unfair with AI involved.

 

All in all though, forests and terrain should be a fair and decisive tactical factor, especially since we cannot camouflage, fortify or bury SAM positions in this game. If it was real life, I'd dig a ditch so just the radar and launch tubes were sticking out, then drape camo netting over the rest of it. AND find a clearing in the woods.

[v2tec]

ops, didn't expect that.

 

I thought trees are not only an design object and are really blocking line of sight.

 

After playing A10 for a while I was interested in BlackShark. But as an helicopter pilot you have massive use of the environment like buildings, hills and trees. Without the LoS and blocking effect of trees I will wait with BlackShark.

 

Hope it will be implemented soon.

[Rotorhead]

Hope it will be implemented soon.

 

We all hope, mate... While DCS is great in almost all aspects, having helicopter (and now even land combat) simulation without such important tactical element as collidable trees is just wrong. Something must be done about that.

 

I can remember that IL-2 had forests that were just few layers of 2D texture. While ground units were able to drive through, planes could crash into them. This "selective" collision detection would be great for DCS too.

 

I mean: The forest don't necessarily need to keep tanks from driving trough, but they have to block unit's LOS and also cause damage to air units (at least player controlled).

 

When an AI copter flies trough forest without any damage now and then, I won't mind. All I want is to not being able to fly through trees myself, and not being fired upon by enemy units that can see me clearly even behind thick forest.

[KosPilot]

-And missiles does not do too well hitting branches and bouncing off tree-trunks anyways

[Rotorhead]

-And missiles does not do too well hitting branches and bouncing off tree-trunks anyways

 

Yes, having weapons collide with forests would be nice, too. It would make no big difference for AI units behavior (if they can't see you, they won't fire at you anyways), but at least you'd have the possibility to evade already launched missiles by hiding behind some trees.

[v2tec]

When an AI copter flies trough forest without any damage now and then, I won't mind. All I want is to not being able to fly through trees myself, and not being fired upon by enemy units that can see me clearly even behind thick forest.

 

Agree, recently thought I would crash because flying directly into the forest - but nothing happend.

That kills some realistic aspect.

Edited November 18, 2012 by v2tec