Mig-21 " Bison " surprises US F-16 in Cope India 2005

[Pilotasso]

I'll dig this deeper, just by a matter of curiosity.

 

Edit: I have detailed fotographs of the APG-63, with technicians pulling it out. Judging by the size of their arms and comparing it to the dish, it should be AT LEAST 800mm diameter wich makes it around:

 

A=pi*(0.800/2)^2=0.502655 Sq meters

 

ALOT more than the APG-66

 

Ill try getting concrete values...stand by

[Alfa]

I'll dig this deeper, just by a matter of curiosity.

 

Edit: I have detailed fotographs of the APG-63, with technicians pulling it out. Judging by the size of their arms and comparing it to the dish, it should be AT LEAST 800mm diameter wich makes it around:

 

A=pi*(0.800/2)^2=0.502655 Sq meters

 

ALOT more than the APG-66

 

Ill try getting concrete values...stand by

 

Eh - yes but I was comparing it with the APG-65 ;) .

 

The APG-63 is the radar of the F-15 and AFAIK it is some 850 mm in diameter, so your "arm judging" isnt that far off :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Pilotasso]

hmm where do you get that data? Because I couldnt even get that over the net or in my books.

[TucksonSonny]

hmm where do you get that data? Because I couldnt even get that over the net or in my books.

 

How about a 980-mm antenna? ;)

 

check info about Phazotron-NIIR:

http://www.milparade.com/security/50/04_01.shtml

 

http://www.aeroindiaseminar.com/Kanashchenko.htm

[GGTharos]

You can put that in a MiG-21?

 

No? I didn't think so ;)

 

We're all aware that the MiG-31 has a big radar. The point of this exercise was to compare radar power between F-16 and MiG-21 using some sort of educated guess - not to see who's put the absolute biggest antenna on a fighter ;)

[mig29smt_fulcrum]

Dont worry guys like Pilatasso , Tharos etc will go on and on how RU equipment sucks and how the USAF is the best and the greatest.If a report about how a upgraded Russian plane might have beat an old US plane (SU30 vs F15) , we get reports they are all lies for F22 programme.Wow great guys.You should go to www.f-16.net and give all your stories how a single F16 can kill 100 SU30MKI's .Now can we actually discuss this report without resorting to bashing of anything Russian or saying it was only for support for US fighter programmes?

[Pilotasso]

You acuse others of being single minded, while we try to sort this thing out by researching real data you just throw stuff into the air. Why dont you contribute with your research and tell us all we are wrong? Please indulge me.

[GGTharos]

Dont worry guys like Pilatasso , Tharos etc will go on and on how RU equipment sucks and how the USAF is the best and the greatest.If a report about how a upgraded Russian plane might have beat an old US plane (SU30 vs F15) , we get reports they are all lies for F22 programme.Wow great guys.You should go to www.f-16.net and give all your stories how a single F16 can kill 100 SU30MKI's .Now can we actually discuss this report without resorting to bashing of anything Russian or saying it was only for support for US fighter programmes?

 

 

You can go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that those exercises actually meant something other than ... being exercises. Everyone who has a bit of a clue as to how they were conducted knows better: They mean nothing. In other words, they don't tell you:

 

Who's equipment is better.

Who's pilots are better.

 

 

On the Russian forumsn Chizh stated that R-77 apparently isn't a very good match for the 120 (at least not until the M version gets produced), and the R-27 doesn't quite measure up to the AIM-7. Apparently from credible sources, too ... not that I double-check ED's sources, so I guess you can consider that 3rd or 4th hand info.

[LaRata]

Fair enough. Let me explain then:

 

Obviously, those aircraft don't shoot missiles at each other. They simulate the shots. The simulation for the AIM-120 had it working as a SARH missile, not as an AMRAAM ... no multi-target capability, no launch-and-leave capability, and range limited to 20nm (a little under 40km).

 

I hope that clears it up ;)

 

 

Thanks for the information :beer:

[Guest IguanaKing]

Dont worry guys like Pilatasso , Tharos etc will go on and on how RU equipment sucks and how the USAF is the best and the greatest.If a report about how a upgraded Russian plane might have beat an old US plane (SU30 vs F15) , we get reports they are all lies for F22 programme.Wow great guys.You should go to www.f-16.net and give all your stories how a single F16 can kill 100 SU30MKI's .Now can we actually discuss this report without resorting to bashing of anything Russian or saying it was only for support for US fighter programmes?

 

Why don't you show us then, exactly where in these articles it says what you are claiming. Not one of them says ANYTHING about who beat who, because as it is well-known among people who actually know, the point of these exercises is to practice skill sets, it is NOT a competition. Nobody here is bashing Russian equipment, they are simply making scientific comparisons of sensors. Speculation about these articles being politically motivated...well...it makes sense if you've been paying attention. The timing is suspicious. But, on the other hand, I don't really see any indication in articles from 2004 OR 2005 as to which aircraft was superior to the other. Its surprising, actually, that the writers didn't take some artistic license in declaring a winner when some of us know these exercises are scripted. For the record, I like Russian planes too, I have even flown in a few. They are very well-built and very rugged and capable aircraft. If the US ever went to war with India, it definitely would be a difficult fight. The point some of us were trying to make is that these exercises are scripted, therefore they prove nothing...nor did articles on these exercises say they do.

[SebTom]

People should stop calling "politics" (a noble matter) what is not...

here, we're just in the middle of a "who's got the bigger one" issue.

[SUBS17]

Dont worry guys like Pilatasso , Tharos etc will go on and on how RU equipment sucks and how the USAF is the best and the greatest.If a report about how a upgraded Russian plane might have beat an old US plane (SU30 vs F15) , we get reports they are all lies for F22 programme.Wow great guys.You should go to www.f-16.net and give all your stories how a single F16 can kill 100 SU30MKI's .Now can we actually discuss this report without resorting to bashing of anything Russian or saying it was only for support for US fighter programmes?

 

I think you're missing the point here, they're not bashing Russian equipment, they're trying to guess as to how powerful the upgraded Mig21s radar is. Its quite relevant here, in F4AF the upgraded Mig21 is about even with the F16s radar in performance. The dish size is a possible way of working this out as to how powerful it is. Incidently NZs A4K upgraded skyhawks have F16 radars in them and I think they were not quite as good as the ones fitted in real F16s due to a smaller dish. Still a very effective aircraft with it though.

[muamshai]

Mig-21s are called as "flying coffins" among Indian pilots

[Pilotasso]

Mig-21s are called as "flying coffins" among Indian pilots

 

All thanks to the mig killer: the white backed vulture.

I had a list of indian mishaps and the white back vulture was responsible for 8 of them, all were Mig-21's.

[muamshai]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3115547.stm

 

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13278998&vsv=574

 

I have nothing agaist MiG-21. I like this small puppy...but I can't stop my laugh when I heard this nick, and how ex Defence Minister George Fernandes has flown aboard a MiG-21 fighter plane in an attempt to demonstrate that the jets are safe. :D

[jj_pt]

When for the first time the Soviet-make MiG-21 was introduced as air defence and strike combat aircraft in the world, it shook the American Air Force which possessed only F-4 Tom Cats then.

 

F-4 Tom Cats? :biggrin:

[GGTharos]

SHook? AHahhaa :D

 

They were victims of their ROE and poor missiles ... after Top Gun, those 21's started going DOWN. ;)

[Starlight]

SHook? AHahhaa :D

They were victims of their ROE and poor missiles ... after Top Gun, those 21's started going DOWN. ;)

 

F-4s were usually less maneuvrable than Mig-21s and Mig-17s. They were also without guns, and they were large and smoky, something that isn't much appreciated in WVR combat. And yes, crews in Vietnam were more trained for nuclear strike and BVR missile combat. So the early stages of conventional air-to-ground operations and WVR A2A combat were not much successful.

 

Other than that, the Americans (not just F-4s) were victims of the RoE as much as they were victims of enemy actions... destroying aircraft in the air but not on the ground, destroying SAMs after they had deployed instead of killing them while they were being downloaded from Soviet ships.... on and on.... you couldn't win such a war.

 

It's proved that RoE, mass-media and opinion, can do much more harm than many enemy weapons systems. It's still true 30 years later, just look at Iraq...

[GGTharos]

Yes, and they also happened to have the upper hand in TWR. Few things could keep up with the Rhinos.

[Starlight]

God, 150 aircraft lost in 10 years is a tremendous record....

 

Yet, with the Tornado, which is considered a modern, capable and safe system, you see that German forces (Luftwaffe and Marineflieger together) lost about 25 aircraft in 8 years. It's not a good record either...

 

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRDaten/FRMilunf.htm

[tomcat1974]

God, 150 aircraft lost in 10 years is a tremendous record....

 

Yet, with the Tornado, which is considered a modern, capable and safe system, you see that German forces (Luftwaffe and Marineflieger together) lost about 25 aircraft in 8 years. It's not a good record either...

 

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRDaten/FRMilunf.htm

 

yes Tornado might be falling , but look at the flight profile of the Tornado..

But i do think is the german pilots that are crazy ...

Check the safety record for Luftwaffe and Spanish AF for F-104.

[GGTharos]

The German AF F-104 record is because of lack of training. It got much much better after proper procedures were applied.

[Force_Feedback]

The German AF F-104 record is because of lack of training. It got much much better after proper procedures were applied.

 

Wrong, the main reason is that the f-104 was an aircraft designed for speed and high altitudes, but was used for mud moving (high speed+ high wing loading is bad for flying low) and the lack of a good ejection seat (until the MB seats were installed), all contributed to its horrible record.

 

And please remember that India is a hot and dusty enviorement for the better part of the year, which always impacts the engine performance.

[Vati]

If GGTharos would refine a bit of his writings w/ some acronyms one would be hard pressed to not think he is Kurt Plummer... ;)

[MBot]

They were victims of their ROE...

 

Hadn't there been such ( tactical ) ROEs, Phantoms would have shot down as many friendlys as MiGs... They were victims of their design ( a BVR fighter without sufficent BVR IDing capabilitys ).