Why do convoys just split and stop when attacked?

[Digll]

This is a question i've always wondered...

 

Why does a convoy or colomn of anything, split and drive a bit when attacked, and then stop. Waiting to be picked on and killed.

 

I've never been in a tank getting attacked by air assets... but i'm pretty sure I wouldn't just drive off the road and park it.

 

You know?

[EtherealN]

They are dispersing such that you will no longer be able to kill them all in one pass.

[GripenNG]

I would guess they park their vechicles and RUN! Most vehicles have nothing to throw at aircraft, so it would just be a waste of lifes if they continued as if nothing happens.

 

EDIT: EtherealN gave the right answer! :)

Edited December 12, 2012 by GripenNG

[EtherealN]

In reality I'd expect that they'd disperse to whatever hard-to-aim-at position they can (any cover or whatever), but this is difficult to implement in-sim.

[martinistripes]

It's just the limits of ground AI at the moment. We'd all like more realistic behaviour. I'm sure ED have a million and one things they'd like to put into DCS World. Like any business they have to prioritise, and work on the things that will bring them profit and keep the company afloat.

 

DCS World is constantly evolving though. Just give it some time. :)

[Stuka]

And in case you didn't know: you can disable this behavior for every group in the advanced WP actions. (Options -> disperse under attack: uncheck)

[MTFDarkEagle]

And in case you didn't know: you can disable this behavior for every group in the advanced WP actions. (Options -> disperse under attack: uncheck)

 

Yes that become very interesting if you have an enemy convoy very close inbound to your farp going 3 million miles per hour :D :thumbup:

[Heli Shed]

In reality I'd expect that they'd disperse to whatever hard-to-aim-at position they can (any cover or whatever), but this is difficult to implement in-sim.

 

KEEP GOING!

[dumgrunt]

It's actually called a herring bone, and it's one of two main possible actions on if you are contacted whilest in a convoy.

[Megagoth1702]

Mh, when playing arma2 with some hardcore real life soldier dudes we never stopped a convoy, unless we were 150% sure of being capable to deal with the threat.

 

Usually - push through and DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE as fast as you can, haha. That's how I learned it. If there is anything wrong with it - please tell me. I am eager to learn. :)

 

In my missions I always tend to uncheck the "disperse when under fire" command.

 

It just makes it so much more challenging.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Megagoth1702

[Madone]

Mh, when playing arma2 with some hardcore real life soldier dudes we never stopped a convoy, unless we were 150% sure of being capable to deal with the threat.

 

Usually - push through and DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE as fast as you can, haha. That's how I learned it. If there is anything wrong with it - please tell me. I am eager to learn. :)

 

I bet these guys were Americans :smartass:

[Jona33]

I believe that's pretty standard convoy tactics if under ambush. The idea being to get out of the killing zone as fast as possible. Against aircraft that my be less good so the current method also works.

[Megagoth1702]

I bet these guys were Americans :smartass:

 

Canadian actually. :-D

[OutOnTheOP]

Regarding the actions of convoys, it depends on the situation. Against a far ambush, you escape the kill zone as swiftly as possible. Against a near ambush, you escape the kill zone as swiftly as possible- but this often means assaulting through the ambushers, because your best chance of survival is to react with as much violence of action as possible. Of course, if the near ambush has no fixing element (IE, no obstacle or blocking force), it's not really near ambush. Drive on.

 

Now, if you're talking about a tactical road movement (IE, combat troops in IFVs or APCs), the reaction to an ambush (and I can speak from experience in this, as an American soldier) is generally to assault the ambushing element. But a tactical road movement and a CLP (combat logistics patrol) are two different things, and a combat unit doing a tactical road movement is most certainly NOT a convoy.

 

On the topic of response to air attack, as mentioned earlier, you disperse, hide as best you can, and if you're in a soft-skin vehicle, probably abandon the vehicle.

 

Also worth mentioning is that if you keep driving, the 30 mph of movement doesn't really make you a significantly harder target for the pilot, but the bouncing around makes it a lot harder to effectively employ any AAMG (if you have one) against the aircraft. Basically, you're better off stationary.

[SkateZilla]

In real life, if you're in a convoy, and you have a aircraft strafe/attack you:

 

- You separate to remove the ability to hit the entire group in one pass, park.

 

- Assess the vehicles that have been hit, (check status of soldiers, equipment etc), Move injured Soldiers to safe® location.

 

- Set up some type of Anti-Air effort.

(A Single Vehicle from the group area with a M60 or H/LMG Equivelant on it's roof can take down a plane with 7.62, or at least damage it enough that he leaves for home plate.)

 

- Radio In for Air Support

(this might be done as soon as the attacking plane is spotted/ID'd)

 

A Convoy in real life would have a larger machine Gun or Shoulder Launched S2A missiles of some kind, they wouldnt go driving through hostile territory without them. Also radio in air support, so while pilot is busy trying to kill the trucks, an Fighter is enroute.

 

Further more,

a convoy would not be like "oh Shzz, an A-10 shooting at us, lets leave everyone in the hit vehicles to die, and try and outrun an A-10 in our armoured vehicles".

 

No Ground vehicle can outrun a fighter/bomber in a straight line.

 

All they'd be doing is decreasing the closure speed of the Aircraft.

As he lines up to do an inline strafing pass, slower closure rate = more time to fire cannons = more targets hit.

Same with staying in formation on the road.

Edited December 12, 2012 by SkateZilla

[Speed]

Well, it might not be a very effective real life tactic, but the following works good in DCS:

 

1) Create a large group of units that are randomly dispersed over a large area (40 km, or more).

 

2) Save this group as a template.

 

3) Set up triggers so that when the convoy comes under fire, the STOP AND DEPLOY TO TEMPLATE trigger action is used continuously on them. Use the scattered group as your template.

 

So what will happen is that the convoy will disperse... TRULY disperse. Not just pull off the road and wait to die.

[Gecko6]

As an 11B2P = Airborne Infantry in combat you do not run from anything. Aircraft or not.

 

That is what makes a good Army vs. a Gaggle of troops.

 

That last thing you do is unass the vehicle at every threat you encounter. You turn and draw all weapons to a single point in front of the oncoming aircraft and unload hell. Thousands of 5.56, 7.62, and 12.7 mm rounds will make quick work of most aircraft dumb enough to do a strafing run. Especially if we had Vulcan turrets attached as we did most of the time.

 

The air threat today is low so you do not have such firepower organic in convoys. Yea we also had at least one stinger for every two vehicles.

 

Pulling off of the road is more for keeping it clear once the threat is over and you can resume mission. Tough to drive through a bunch of burning hulks. Herring bone is about sectors of fire and security.

 

There is no place you can hide from aircraft and we knew that. So we would go down fighting rather than scattering like cockroaches.

 

To a civilian it may sound idiotic but to a Soldier it is reaction under fire. That is why they drill you so much.

[159th_Viper]

So we would go down fighting rather than scattering like cockroaches.....

 

QFT!

 

Man, I just had a flashback of a twenty-year old memory of the LMG deployment when under aircraft attack.....on your back, feet hooked to bipod, with your #2 swivelling you about by your battle-jacket whilst you put rounds skywards.....Man I can still feel the brass-burns :megalol:

[Gecko6]

How about the one where the AG holds the bipod over his shoulder and the gunner takes a knee and fires upward. We were at Fort Campbell doing Anti Air against RC styrofoam aircraft as a Company and I was an E-nothing private and that muzzle flash damn near took off my eyebrows. Plus the sound was punishing!

[maturin]

 

You turn and draw all weapons to a single point in front of the oncoming aircraft and unload hell. Thousands of 5.56, 7.62, and 12.7 mm rounds will make quick work of most aircraft dumb enough to do a strafing run. Especially if we had Vulcan turrets attached as we did most of the time.

Might work against a P-51.

 

But unless you actually do have Vulcans, the attacking plane can kill you at his leisure by not overflying the convoy. FFARs can be used from far beyond the engagement envelope of small arms, and no air-ground cannon is smaller than 20mm, so the range advantage is the aircraft's.

 

No human eye can judge the range to an onrushing jet accurately, and few firearms can be effectively employed at such ranges, especially when the ranges changes by hundreds of meters in a split second. Sure, there will be lots of lead, but spray and pray doesn't work when most people will aim there weapons in ways that don't land the rounds anywhere near the aircraft. I would be surprised to hear than infantry are trained in futile exercises such as leading jets anyway.

 

I sure wouldn't want to be in a jet hit by a wall of small arms fire at short range or after overflying the target, but any effective shooting the convoy does is only going to happen after a barrage of rockets and autocannon rips into it.

Edited December 12, 2012 by maturin

[EtherealN]

Small note:

 

no air-ground cannon is smaller than 20mm

 

Since a "cannon" is usually defined as 20mm or more, this is correct.

However, there are fun things like the GAU-19 (12.7mm) that, while not being cannon, do the same job.

[dumgrunt]

True it hard to judge lead marks by mk 1 eye ball alone, that is why there are standard lead distances at differing angles taught for low level air defence. Im not across the engagement envelopes of unguided AG weapons, but I can tell you IRL convoys always run with security, even at troop level you are talking at least 4 25mm, 2 .50 cal plus numerous other gpmg and LSWs. Come within 2000m you will be thinking twice, come within 1000m and you will be lucky make the run without gettin hit. And in most modern aircraft it only takes one.

 

Whether you drive through or herring bone depends alot on terrain, and most importantly whether a vehicle has been disabled.

[Megagoth1702]

Well, it might not be a very effective real life tactic, but the following works good in DCS:

 

1) Create a large group of units that are randomly dispersed over a large area (40 km, or more).

 

2) Save this group as a template.

 

3) Set up triggers so that when the convoy comes under fire, the STOP AND DEPLOY TO TEMPLATE trigger action is used continuously on them. Use the scattered group as your template.

 

So what will happen is that the convoy will disperse... TRULY disperse. Not just pull off the road and wait to die.

 

Continuously? Why not just once?

[SkateZilla]

Might work against a P-51.

 

But unless you actually do have Vulcans, the attacking plane can kill you at his leisure by not overflying the convoy. FFARs can be used from far beyond the engagement envelope of small arms, and no air-ground cannon is smaller than 20mm, so the range advantage is the aircraft's.

 

No human eye can judge the range to an onrushing jet accurately, and few firearms can be effectively employed at such ranges, especially when the ranges changes by hundreds of meters in a split second. Sure, there will be lots of lead, but spray and pray doesn't work when most people will aim there weapons in ways that don't land the rounds anywhere near the aircraft. I would be surprised to hear than infantry are trained in futile exercises such as leading jets anyway.

 

I sure wouldn't want to be in a jet hit by a wall of small arms fire at short range or after overflying the target, but any effective shooting the convoy does is only going to happen after a barrage of rockets and autocannon rips into it.

 

which is why i said a H/LMG on a vehicle separate from the group, Evacuate the personel out of the vehicles, as the planes comes in to strafe, unload on him with e a HMG/LMG, if he flies into the rounds, they'll either damage electrical or engine components, and he'll think twice about doing it again and run for home base with their damaged plane.

 

Fuselages arent bullet proof, canopies arent bullet proof.

 

:joystick::pilotfly:

[Grimes]

Continuously? Why not just once?

 

Stop and Deploy to template has about a 60 second timeout. If the unit doesn't reach the designated position after a minute it will just stop in place. Which is actually kind of nice because its a good way to create a very random location if you use multiple templates and choose them randomly.