Best tools to learn air-to-air refueling

[Bahger]

I almost quit DCS A-10C over my abject failure to learn A2A refueling. No matter how steady I made my approach to the tanker, or how patient I was, I could never seem to fly within what seemed to be the very narrow limits of tolerance required to get the boom to attach and to keep it there long enough to take fuel. I'm going to try again. I hope it "takes" this time. I wonder if anyone can recommend the following:

 

- Best settings for throttle and joystick curvature/dead zones, etc., in the sim's Options/Controls/Axes menu. I have a CH HOTAS. I really like it but I'm not at all sure that I've found a way to achieve the very fine control of both throttle input and x/y joystick axes necessary at my current settings.

 

- Best tutorial available on YouTube

 

- Best practice mission for download

 

- Best walkthrough

 

I want to make missions requiring tanking -- or offering it as an option -- but I feel I cannot do this before I've learned it myself.

 

All assistance is much appreciated.

[SuperSix2]

Id use the missions found in the user file section. Second, are u going straight for the boom? I find this an error. Because its harder to judge speed coming from. I join up on formstion match speeds(ibe already contacted and open the gate tr again) slide over behind the boom at rhis point. I dont have trackir so I have my view up so all Isee os the ufc box on the bottom then the hud and the tail. Ready pre contact and the boom operator should do his job. Remember though that as you take fuel his speed will decrease however ot wont be anything large maybe 1-2 knots depending how much fuel and whos all been drinking also. What helped me the most was forming up mstching speeds then sliding into position from there. Sorry for spelling, grammar, and run on senetences. Posted from phone lol.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

hey Bahger!i have a ch-setup as well...(just ordered the warthog though)

i found it as well pretty much impossible to make air to air refueling....i tried it about 1 or 2 hours, until i decided, that the ch-fighterstick is just not precise enough to make AAR without any axis curves...then i set a curvature of 20% to both the x and the y axis, and voila....second try fully refueled.

its not that hard.

[AMVI_Rider]

You don't really need a tutorial, nor a specific mission: it's just a matter of practice to stay connected ... thrust me, I had the very same problem and got a little bit frustrated until thing started to improve.

 

Here is something I learned in between my training:

 

1. Be patient, always! :smilewink:

 

2. Stabilize and fine trim your plane both on observation and pre-contact positions: this prevents your arms to get tired too quickly and helps you to fine control surfaces with the right amount of force applied. Relax, don't squeeze your stick and throttle.

 

3. Approach and maintain the right angle on boom: to have better sight on the boom many tend to stay too high causing a reduction of margin. Once connected, try using pause and external view to check your position.

 

4. Don't fixate on looking at the boom: your reference should be the tanker position as seen from your cockpit. Lock or smooth your trackir/freetrack.

 

5. Practice flying some time with the tanker but without being connected.

 

6. I don't know how precise is your HOTAS, still, DavidRed is right about curvature: try adding some (10-15), practice some days until 100% success then start removing it. I think you'll be able to take it back to 0.

 

7. Remember point 1 :music_whistling:

[Grimes]

[mr_mojo97]

Open the fuel door and trim, well before you get to the tanker, slowly 1-2 knots of overtake. Get in centrelineish of tanker then make your call to precontact position. Make sure you're at a position that you can see the back of the tankers wings (half light and half in shaddow). Watch boom til you connect, watch tankers wings, walk the throttle backwards and forwards a little bit at a time. Keep speed constant. Keep tiny movements - a small movement sends you flying off. DON'T WATCH THE FUEL GUAGE!! Keep these things in mind at all time. Concentrate - you'll get sweaty palms sure but your muscle memory will come in time. Increase your deadzones and curves as you begin then gradually bring them back in. Personally I wouldn't use Pause to check where you are - I found unpausing has put me off slightly and I'm all over the place. This works for me - I've got more A2A refuels than landings now!!! I've got 3 missions - day, evening and night that I use every day for 10 mins that I think I got from the user files (can't remember his name) and changed the times accordingly in Mission Editor ). Hope that helps

[WildBillKelsoe]

I almost quit DCS A-10C over my abject failure to learn A2A refueling. No matter how steady I made my approach to the tanker, or how patient I was, I could never seem to fly within what seemed to be the very narrow limits of tolerance required to get the boom to attach and to keep it there long enough to take fuel. I'm going to try again. I hope it "takes" this time. I wonder if anyone can recommend the following:

 

- Best settings for throttle and joystick curvature/dead zones, etc., in the sim's Options/Controls/Axes menu. I have a CH HOTAS. I really like it but I'm not at all sure that I've found a way to achieve the very fine control of both throttle input and x/y joystick axes necessary at my current settings.

 

- Best tutorial available on YouTube

 

- Best practice mission for download

 

- Best walkthrough

 

I want to make missions requiring tanking -- or offering it as an option -- but I feel I cannot do this before I've learned it myself.

 

All assistance is much appreciated.

 

Bahger, you should know this. AAR is difficult in a ship like the Hog. Even if you have the best stick, the AI will respond only if you are

 

1- On speed

2- Inside detection zone behind boom

3- trimmed

 

Lets take each one of these closely:

 

[1] On speed:

 

While inside mission editor, check tanker speed and altitude. Speed inside editor is ground speed. Therefore, set your speed indication in HUD to GS, not IAS, not TAS, hell not TAS/MACH.

 

[2] inside detection zone:

 

Detection zone can be likened to a rectangle, about (me thinks) 10X10 feet from boom operator. If you are inside that zone, remain on speed, stay trimmed and forget about the boom. He will deliver if you meet his parameters.

 

[3] trimmed:

 

This is tried and tested with my stuff (check sig). Best approach to trimming to refuel, is to trim from horizon and on speed, on click nose down, and offset the drop with slight joystick back.

 

What about CH joysticks? I set curves to 25 and 25 for aileron and elevators. the slightest move from center can and will help with neutral trim.

 

 

 

My attitude:

Always remain late, meaning always stay behind. Do not advance throttle past the sweet sound of required RPM to stay on speed.

 

How do I know the sweet RPM? should I go over it? what if tanker speeds up (he's giving fuel, thus getting lighter)? should I go under it?

 

 

The answer is: AI

 

hook your AI buddies on TAD, watch their speed at contact, and voila. Speed secured.

 

Last: never ever chase the boom. stay within the 'cubicle' and fuel will be with you.

 

The cubicle is an imaginary zone behind the tanker, where your eye references your cockpit canopy bow, or bolts, or mirror or curvature to a part of the tanker. remain with that part, and fuel will be there.

 

 

watch all these vids:

 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=DCS+A-10C+refuel&oq=DCS+A-10C+refuel&gs_l=youtube.3..0l2.8465.11778.0.12123.16.14.0.2.2.1.339.2546.2j7j3j2.14.0...0.0...1ac.1.HvA4rJ0KZ2o

 

and my vid

 

Edited February 22, 2013 by WildBillKelsoe

[Bahger]

Thanks for the helpful responses, gentlemen.

 

WildBill, your detailed response was very helpful and inspiring. I watched your tutorial vid very carefully.

 

I tried AAR to day for the first time in a year. The bad news is that I'm still sh*t. The good news is that I know why: I'm very good at mastering all the systems and switchology, but with little experience in squadron and formation flying my fine control/positional skills relative to another aircraft are weak. I need to anticipate better and then not over-react.

 

Before reading your post, WBK, I made the following adjustments to my CH Fighter Stick settings in-game:

 

DZ = 0

Saturation X = 100

Saturation Y = 75

Curve = 50

 

I will change my curve for X and Y to 25 per your advice. Any advice about throttle curve/saturation settings?

 

Your point about switching to GS is very well taken. I used Speed's AAR training .miz, which has the tanker at 16,000ft and 270kts in the ME. The default indicated airspeed in the mission appears to be 210. If I set GS in the Hog, should I assume that my target airspeed will be 270 when I'm on the boom?

 

I admired your patience and precision in handling those multiple contact/disconnects. I'm going to practice for an hour a day, if possible, as I'm determined to get this down.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Bahger

[TheThumper]

Keep trying till your eyes bleed.... When you are truly sick of it.... then it will be easy.... so you won't do it again for a bit... which of course means you will be rusty.... rinse and repeat.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Any advice about throttle curve/saturation settings?

 

Your point about switching to GS is very well taken. I used Speed's AAR training .miz, which has the tanker at 16,000ft and 270kts in the ME. The default indicated airspeed in the mission appears to be 210. If I set GS in the Hog, should I assume that my target airspeed will be 270 when I'm on the boom?

 

 

Leave throttle alone. it is precise and I did not change it. If you cant remain on speed, look to wings, open speedbrakes just away from off position, and advance throttle a teeny weeny nudge. Be prepared to correct trim...

 

 

If no one else took fuel, and you're early in mission, then tanker GS should be same as mission editor. Speed is basically a reference to know that sometime in future, that speed will increase because tanker used/gave fuel, therefore became lighter. You on the other hand, because you're empty, you'll gain weight of fuel and slow down. Be prepared to increase throttle accordingly.

 

Lastly, few days ago, I found 4 people doing AAR in multiplayer. I suggest you hook up with somebody after 1.2.3 release and practice AAR with him on observation. Someone with either, CH products or TMWH. 1.2.2 AAR in multiplayer causes crashes ATM.

[Bahger]

You might be my salvation here, WBK. Throttle control has always been my problem with AAR, I'm basically sound with trim and joystick inputs.

 

From what you're saying, I take it that a very small airbrake up setting might give me finer control of target speed via throttle input. The challenge for me is going to be fine control of throttle. In fact, I have often wondered if i should use keyboard throttle input just to achieve that.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Bahger

[WildBillKelsoe]

You might be my salvation here, WBK. Throttle control has always been my problem with AAR, I'm basically sound with trim and joystick inputs.

 

From what you're saying, I take it that a very small airbrake up setting might give me finer control of target speed via throttle input. The challenge for me is going to be fine control of throttle. In fact, I have often wondered if i should use keyboard throttle input just to achieve that.

 

negative on the keyboard throttle. DO NOT use keyboard (Euch.... YIKES!!)...

 

Here is a little project to help you:

 

1- forget AAR. Close receptacle, turn on autopilot and fly formation with tanker.

 

2- freeze trackIR and reference the tanker to get her speed.

 

3- once on speed, begin AAR as described.

 

4- Have somebody with you (human) to observe. He will tell you 'closer' , 'farther', etc...

 

Just put the fact in mind: A-10 is NOT 787 and is somewhat analogue. But that is realism. I was frustrated like you, but I nailed it. Start with no loadout.

 

Above all, be needy. Don't give up and you can do it.

[Sabre-TLA]

We developed a couple of AAR missions that have helped with the training.

 

These are qualification missions but include a practice mission to perfect your technique.

 

AFT01 - Air to Air Refueling Day

AFT02 - Air to Air Refueling Night

[WildBillKelsoe]

We developed a couple of AAR missions that have helped with the training.

 

These are qualification missions but include a practice mission to perfect your technique.

 

AFT01 - Air to Air Refueling Day

AFT02 - Air to Air Refueling Night

 

for what version? how to purchase and activate? I dont have paypal.

[Sabre-TLA]

For DCS World V1.2.2.7570 and future releases.

 

Unfortunately we only accept Paypal however Paypal does have a credit card option on checkout so you don't need a Paypal account to make the purchase.

 

It provides VISA, Mastercard, Discover Card and American Express options for payment.

[Bahger]

Wow, that's pretty impressive. I've never seen anyone charge for user-made content before but there's no reason why you shouldn't as a lot of hard work has obviously gone into this. I will purchase it by Monday at the latest, thank you for the information.

[HiJack]

I read a post about adjusting the Throttle for refueling and I modified it a bit. For those using X52 joystick as throttle, this helped me achieve the A2A refueling with the A-10C in adition to adjusting the other axes. This setting retains the taxiing speed adjustment and I find this setting more easy when refueling.

 

 

 

[jay43]

I commited fraticide twice today trying in vain to do this grrrr.

[WildBillKelsoe]

no tools, just good curves on stick, and a long haul of experience from hours and hours of hit and miss...

[jay43]

For DCS World V1.2.2.7570 and future releases.

 

Unfortunately we only accept Paypal however Paypal does have a credit card option on checkout so you don't need a Paypal account to make the purchase.

 

It provides VISA, Mastercard, Discover Card and American Express options for payment.

 

I can confirm these missions are very good and i will be purchasing some more, when i have mastered the Air to Air refueling.

Good work guys nice cheap fair price to.

[K2mil]

That's is so funny I just got the Missions from Maple flag as well I find them very high quality definitely worth a buck I have saitek x65f and you know what I will keep on trying until I figure it out.

 

Edit: it's really hard when you start... day 1 not even close ... People in you tube videos make it look easy but to make it happen is another thing

Edited April 19, 2013 by K2mil

[Spetz]

After completely giving up on refuel a long time ago with my x52 pro, this is how sorted myself out..

 

I first, finally, sprung for a warthog HOTAS. Unlike most here, I keep the curve at zero for both axis. I find that the stick is so sensitive, that little millimetre by millimetre adjustments around the centre zone are all I need to keep the A10 where I want it, after trimming of course. I deploy my air brakes a little bit and keep walking the throttle back and forth slightly to keep formation. I also started flying formation behind the tanker for a few minutes, getting the feel of it before committing.

 

I've gone from not being to hook up once, to getting a full load with maybe 3 disconnects now in maybe 3 practice missions. I honestly think that the new HOTAS was the biggest factor for me..

[Shepski]

I have a CH as as well... had to get rid of my TM FLCS/TQS with Stickworks chips(I loved that HOTAS!) when I went to Win 7 64 bit.

 

The CH isn't stiff enough for me and I find I bob around the center position of the stick which I think is due to the pots.

 

AAR is much tougher with the CH IMO but keep at it!

[WildBillKelsoe]

I read a post about adjusting the Throttle for refueling and I modified it a bit. For those using X52 joystick as throttle, this helped me achieve the A2A refueling with the A-10C in adition to adjusting the other axes. This setting retains the taxiing speed adjustment and I find this setting more easy when refueling.

 

 

 

[ATTACH]79849[/ATTACH]

 

HiJack, I can't thank you enough for this. Put this on a CH pro throttle, and refueling becomes so easy. Today, from 3000 lbs I got a full tank in 2 latches. Hell, I even did it sideways for the first time today from a turning tanker. THANK YOU!

[HiJack]

You are welcome Bill :) Glad you liked it. I also got the idea from some other post ;) search sure is important on this forum!