Defend against the TOW?

[Mortifa]

Just learning the game and I thought I had cleared enough enemy units to attack Kilosov, when the T-80's launched TOW's at me.

 

How do you defend against those in an M1?

 

Thanks,

[Bushmanni]

Kill the enemy before the missile reaches you or drive to cover.

[Mortifa]

Smoke?

 

Do they have smoke dispensers?

[ENO]

There are some intriguing balance issues between the eastern block tanks and western ones. A couple versions ago I put 10 excellent m1a2 Abrams against 10 average t55s and the 'maricans got slaughtered every time.

 

Not sure if that's still the case- suffice to say lesson was to kill everything from the air if you had a chance

[Speed]

In order to even the playing field between western and eastern armored forces in a manner that was at least somewhat realistic, several months ago I did some work on a active protection system Lua script. I call it LAPS (Lua Active Protection System). Using a small explosive detonation, it destroys incoming ATGMs that are calculated to be on an impact course with a protected vehicle once they get within a certain kill radius (like 20 meters).

 

There are some problems though, in realism and implementation:

 

US Army does not yet field an APS. Oh we could just use Trophy, but then we'd be giving money to an foreign defense contractor. It's more important to keep our domestic defense contractors well fed and happy than it is to keep our troops safe and alive. There are supposedly some domestic active protection systems that are near completion. God only knows when they could finally deploy them, 2020? :no_sad:

 

Second problem is, due to current limitations in the scripting engine, it cannot intercept HEAT rounds or RPGs.

 

The third problem is that I never developed it past the proof of concept stage, so against weapon types that it can intercept (missiles), it has infinite ammo, full hemispherical coverage, and 100% effectiveness. Literally, a vehicle is invulnerable against all types of ATGMs when you have LAPS activated on it.

 

Obviously, I would need to make it more realistic before I release it. That wouldn't be too hard- just implement like a 90% probability of intercept, a limited rate of fire, coverage areas, limited ammo.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Speed

[Wrecking Crew]

Move the column. Keep it in motion and those missiles will have a harder time hitting the mark.

 

I'll set a new path before the engagement that should keep my armor going.

 

WC

[Mortifa]

Any of the units able to drop smoke?

 

I looked at the arty units and cannot find that option.

 

JTAC can drop marking smoke, but no other kind....

[Kaktus29]

i don't see the problem, if a tank is armed with a anti-tank missile and can fire and kill you off at 5-6 km away then its just superior system..there is nothing you can do..

 

it does show the big problem of propaganda in reality when all western media trashes russian tanks yet its the russian tank that are the most developed with most important systems-active protection originated in a russian tank,missile fired from a tank barrel same there, auto-loader implemented in USSR and proven in battle .. and all this elements are copied at the time i write this by western nations today.. from active protection to autoloaders..

 

sadly most people think abrams is superior because the tank was involved in trashing obsolete soviet tanks with the most rudimentary equipment in iraq during the desert storm..

 

i can already smell a GG rant coming now to correct me and tell me why abrams is indeed superior and will hit a T-90 before T-90 destroys him from 5 miles away.. )lol

[Speed]

The only person I saw actually implying that something might be wrong was the person who pointed out that the T-55 was slaughtering M1s.

 

Personally, I fear that the US could have gotten complacent in tank design. They tell us the M1 is so great, but if it is so great, then where is its active protection system? Where is its anti-tank missiles?

[Angel101]

i don't see the problem, if a tank is armed with a anti-tank missile and can fire and kill you off at 5-6 km away then its just superior system..there is nothing you can do..

 

it does show the big problem of propaganda in reality when all western media trashes russian tanks yet its the russian tank that are the most developed with most important systems-active protection originated in a russian tank,missile fired from a tank barrel same there, auto-loader implemented in USSR and proven in battle .. and all this elements are copied at the time i write this by western nations today.. from active protection to autoloaders..

 

sadly most people think abrams is superior because the tank was involved in trashing obsolete soviet tanks with the most rudimentary equipment in iraq during the desert storm..

 

i can already smell a GG rant coming now to correct me and tell me why abrams is indeed superior and will hit a T-90 before T-90 destroys him from 5 miles away.. )lol

 

We are talking about M1 Vs T-55, and like you pointed, in Desert Storm they (M1) slaughtered many of them (T-55).

[Kaktus29]

@angel.. t-55 does not fire missiles.. and if by some miracle it does then yes, abrams has no protection against that..

[GGTharos]

Actually yes, the ABRAMS does have protection against that, but there's nothing modeled in game to represent it.

 

We'll start with the simplest of things: Armor. A lot of those older missiles aren't a match for the ABRAMS' armor.

 

Then there's the smoke cannisters. Detection of a missile launch would result in dispersing smoke and moving, so that the missile operator cannot guide the missile to the tank.

 

Then there's the jammers. It is possible to use a sparkler to cause problems with the guidance of the missile.

 

And most importantly, you can fire back. You can fire back several times before the missile gets to you, but again, the fact that the M1 can fire on targets 6km away is not simulated.

 

Hit probability on a tank at that range is not great, but it is enough.

[Dudikoff]

@angel.. t-55 does not fire missiles.. and if by some miracle it does then yes, abrams has no protection against that..

 

Some modernization variants introduced the Bastion ATGMs (the same missile used by more modern variants of T-62 and the BMP-3).

[Dudikoff]

Then there's the jammers. It is possible to use a sparkler to cause problems with the guidance of the missile.

 

Sparkler? Is that like an IR jammer to confuse the SACLOS guided missiles? Unless I'm missing something, that won't do much as Bastion is laser-beam riding guided.

[NineLine]

The only person I saw actually implying that something might be wrong was the person who pointed out that the T-55 was slaughtering M1s.

 

Personally, I fear that the US could have gotten complacent in tank design. They tell us the M1 is so great, but if it is so great, then where is its active protection system? Where is its anti-tank missiles?

 

I did see this, of course its from wikipedia so there is that :)

 

Active protection system

 

In addition to the armor, some Abrams are equipped with a Softkill Active protection system, the AN/VLQ-6 Missile Countermeasure Device (MCD) that can impede the function of guidance systems of some semi-active control line-of-sight (SACLOS) wire and radio guided anti-tank missiles (such as the Russian AT-3, AT-4, AT-5, AT-6 and the like) and thermally and infrared guided missiles.[42] The MCD works by emitting a massive, condensed infrared signal to confuse the seeker of an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM). However, the drawback to the system is that the ATGM is not destroyed, it is merely directed away from its intended target, leaving the missile to detonate elsewhere. This device is mounted on the turret roof in front of the loader's hatch, and can lead some people to mistake Abrams fitted with these devices for the M1A2 version, since the Commander's Independent Thermal Viewer on the latter is mounted in the same place, though the MCD is box-shaped and fixed in place as opposed to cylindrical and rotating like the CITV.

 

and of course there is this...

 

Concealment

 

The turret is fitted with two six-barreled smoke grenade launchers (USMC M1A1s use an eight-barreled version). These can create a thick smoke that blocks both vision and thermal imaging. The engine is also equipped with a smoke generator that is triggered by the driver. When activated, fuel is sprayed into the hot turbine exhaust, creating the thick smoke. However, due to change from diesel as a primary fuel to the use of JP-8, this system is disabled on most Abrams today because of a slightly elevated risk of fire damage to the engine compartment.

[GGTharos]

Depends on what's guiding it. If you can fool the tracker, then you can make the missile miss.

 

Sparkler? Is that like an IR jammer to confuse the SACLOS guided missiles? Unless I'm missing something, that won't do much as Bastion is laser-beam riding guided.

[NineLine]

Depends on what's guiding it. If you can food the tracker, then you can make the missile miss.

 

Hmmm Big Mac defense system? :D

[GGTharos]

Yep ... supersize that sucker :D

[Mortifa]

Okay, so I take it arty has no smoke either and the M1's must keep moving and preferably from cover to cover, quickly.

[NineLine]

Okay, so I take it arty has no smoke either and the M1's must keep moving and preferably from cover to cover, quickly.

 

Find a big rock to hide behind and call in some A-10s :)

[Mortifa]

Find a big rock to hide behind and call in some A-10s :)

 

Well I tried that, and sadly all my A-10's dropped their Mav's on the first tank I targeted. A little overkill if you ask me....so the problem is how to advance after the air support is out of weapons....

 

I was hoping my arty could drop smoke.

[NineLine]

Well I tried that, and sadly all my A-10's dropped their Mav's on the first tank I targeted. A little overkill if you ask me....so the problem is how to advance after the air support is out of weapons....

 

I was hoping my arty could drop smoke.

 

I am not 100% on this, so dont quote me, but I assume smoke is the same as clouds and the AI can see through it anyways, so I am not sure if that would help against AI current anyways.

[Dudikoff]

Depends on what's guiding it. If you can fool the tracker, then you can make the missile miss.

 

Yes, but the Russian tank ATGMs are not SACLOS guided (as e.g. Fagot and Konkurs systems - where the guidance system gets the deviation of the missile position by tracking its IR signature - and is thus susceptible to a simple IR strobe placed on a tank) and AFAIK all are guided in the same way - an operator marking the target with a laser beam - so I fail to see how this Sparkler thing is in any way helpful here.

[Wrecking Crew]

Find a big rock to hide behind and call in some A-10s :)

 

LOL

[Ripcord]

I recently played a CA scenario where 4 M-1s rolled up behind some BMPs and surprise attacked them. Still 3 of the 4 Abrams got waxed. Again it was ATGMs that got them. Pretty unbelievable.

 

For me it's almost like the US armor is a liability in CA engagements. You just want to move them and hide them until you can work over the area with artillery and air assets.