Can we have this little Huey feature in our BS?

[TimeKilla]

Might be because its all or nothing, ie implement one unrealistic mod and where do you stop? Rather implement no unrealistic mods, however convenient they might be.

 

100% mate. :thumbup:

[JG14_Smil]

What's realism? Having a bunch of functions that don't work? I have a full function cockpit, tactile feedback, sound systems, you name it. I never, ever think of the word realism as it is just a flight sim. To not use this rudder mod due to realism issues is quite noble but misguided.

[KaspeR32]

Might be because its all or nothing, ie implement one unrealistic mod and where do you stop? Rather implement no unrealistic mods, however convenient they might be.

 

Not sure of the logic there. We all use joysticks. Period. There are options for FFB sticks as many other people have stated, why wouldn't there be options for rudder pedals? Also, why include Game mode for every aircraft ED has made? Why include "Takeoff Assist" and "Automatic Rudder" for the P-51D? Is this the "all or nothing" you're talking about? :music_whistling:

 

Anyway, +1 for the option to be made available.

[Mouse]

What's realism?

 

Everyone acknowledges that there are real world hardware limitations for most if not all of the people flying the Ka-50 in DCS, or any aircraft for that matter. That means any software solution to our hardware limits is going to be a compromise. So far I've generally seen two options when it comes to realism in simulators:

 

(1) Make it HARDER than the real world, for the sake of "realism" (with big fat quotes).

 

(2) Make it "EASIER" (also with big fat quotes) than the real world, for the sake of comfort, sanity and fun.

 

For some strange reason, people who prefer the first option get really bent out of shape when others ask for the second option to be made available to them. I'll never understand this desire to make things harder than they need to be, backed by the strange logic that it's somehow more realistic than (maybe) making things "easier," where easier might actually just mean more comfortable, intuitive, fun or whatever. If you prefer to work harder to make up for the fact that you don't own a real Ka-50, please don't force the rest of us to do so, and don't pretend your preference is realistic or otherwise superior.

 

+1 for an option to unlink rudder from trim in the Ka-50.

[cichlidfan]

Not sure of the logic there. We all use joysticks. Period. There are options for FFB sticks as many other people have stated, why wouldn't there be options for rudder pedals? Also, why include Game mode for every aircraft ED has made? Why include "Takeoff Assist" and "Automatic Rudder" for the P-51D? Is this the "all or nothing" you're talking about? :music_whistling:

 

Anyway, +1 for the option to be made available.

 

Agreed 100% +1

[wess24m]

If you want a more realistic rudder system in both the huey and shark, and you use saitek pedals, install Peters mod (in the case of the shark) and crank up the friction knob on the pedals. I've tried it and when I release pressure on the pedals they stay where I put them. Another way was already mentioned above, remove your return spring.

[Rotorhead]

Not sure of the logic there. We all use joysticks. Period. There are options for FFB sticks as many other people have stated, why wouldn't there be options for rudder pedals? Also, why include Game mode for every aircraft ED has made? Why include "Takeoff Assist" and "Automatic Rudder" for the P-51D? Is this the "all or nothing" you're talking about? :music_whistling:

 

Exactly that. What Viper engages in here is called a "false dilemma", a rhetorical technique very popular in some circles (Either you vote for me, or you support terrorists, sir! :doh:). No need for radical claims like that.

 

The only "ALL" way is to become a Russian national, enlist into the air force, start training for helicopter pilot, become good at it, and maybe one day, you will end flying a real Ka-50 (If they don't assign you into Mi-28 unit, bummer!:mad:). Everything else is the "NOTHING" way, right?

 

Come on, it's not like that, it has never been an will never be. Nobody asks ED to dumb down flight model, to simplify avionics, or anything like that (which they have already done with "Game mode" :music_whistling:). But we use a wide variety of control devices here, ranging from home-made pits to cheap plastic sticks bought at local mall. All we want is to have more options to adapt the controls accordingly to our hardware, to make the sim, in fact, as realistic as possible within our hardware limitations.

 

As you can see from wess24m's post above, with right hardware, the option to not center rudder pedals is actually very realistic.

[PeterP]

As you can see from wess24m's post above, with right hardware, the option to not center rudder pedals is actually very realistic.

 

Even this isn't entire true. (It seems to me that some type their responses and conclusions before they have really thought this whole matter to the end. Further: You have a good argument ?! - post it! - but don't start a argument. ;) )

 

When you build rudder that have a force-trim damper that cancels the force at current position you have still the axis response set back to 'center' - and this would cause that you would still have to center your rudders - even with force-trim damper.

 

DSC doesn't sends other FFB signal than for the X/Y axis for the stick.

- using simply a hacked FFB controller is no option for Force-trim Rudders in DCS up to now. You have to build a mechanism that is chained to the push/release of your trim button.

 

- so you would anyway have to use some crude and not 100% working mod like I made and/or you would still have to ask polity in the forum why ED isn't implementing finally the obvious function to support all hardware and not only try to please twist-stick users (<- that's my own personal interpretation why it was implemented at all).

Because when you use a twist stick for rudders - trimming the Shark would be something absolute impossible if you woulden't reset also the rudders (well some that are able to solve the rubic-cube in less than 6 seconds would maybe have no problem with it ).

 

And to be honest: I really don't care how non-FFB-Stick users trim the shark... but why have FFB-Stick users still dance this crazy "Fox-trot" while they can leave their stick-hand where it is when releasing the trim button?

 

So I'm asking for just to leave my rudders where they are as long I have the FFB Option checked.

So all possible axis and controls behave like they are FFB supported - please don't start to think about the 'how?' - Leave this question to the user when there no simple solution for it - But just please don't cancel out options beforehand.

Well - if ED makes a own independent click-able option out of it that works independent form FFB - fine, better for all.

Edited May 17, 2013 by PeterP

[wess24m]

Even this isn't entire true.

 

I think that setup (remove spring or turn up the tension) is going to as close as 99% of us that fly the Huey or shark are going to get to realistic anti-torque pedals. While you've built your own forcefeedback back pedals, its not something thats feasible for the majority of us.

 

I agree that it should be an option just as it is for the Huey. We all want things to be close as the real thing but we all know there are things that would be practically impossible to implement. Nothing wrong with having the option, if you don't like it or think that it makes the game less realistic then don't use it.

 

I don't get all the arguing, from this thread people should have a good idea how real helicopter controls behave. If you can replicate that to the closest of your (and your equipments) ability then call it good. If you'd like to go a step further build a setup like Peters.

[kampf]

+1 pls

 

the better choice in this case is to give players the ability to choose :)

 

 

G940 owner

[doveman]

Wouldn't a better option be to keep the rudder trim but to have an option for DCS to treat the current pedal input as 0 when the trim is clicked?

 

So for example, if the left pedal is depressed to send +50 to DCS and then the trim is clicked, the current position is then treated as 0/Centre (even though the actual input from the pedal is +50, or maybe 16000 in DirectX Input values) and so there would be no need to physically centre the pedals to prevent DCS seeing and adding an additional +50. Then pressing the right pedal to return them to the physical centre would then be seen by DCS as -50 and then clicking the trim again whilst the pedals are centred (or close enough, as it's probably impossible to get them exactly centred with the spring removed) would align the physical 0 with DCS' 0 input position.

 

This would obviously only work for people who've removed the spring/tightened the torsion screw on their pedals to make them stay where they're left and not return to centre but that seems to be what a lot of people are doing anyway.

[Havner]

I achieved this by implementing the Trimmer myself in TARGET (exactly the same way as in BS, hit the trimmer, axis are locked, recenter the stick, axis get's unlocked).

It only works for the stick leaving the rudder alone. And I don't use BS built-in trimmer at all. I know not everyone has TM Warthog (or Cougar) but for some at least this is an option.

 

Additionally with this I can do minor corrections to the trimmer using a hat (plane like). I found it very useful.

 

I can give the profile is anyone's interested.

[Hunden Ynk]

Wouldn't a better option be to keep the rudder trim but to have an option for DCS to treat the current pedal input as 0 when the trim is clicked?

 

So for example, if the left pedal is depressed to send +50 to DCS and then the trim is clicked, the current position is then treated as 0/Centre (even though the actual input from the pedal is +50, or maybe 16000 in DirectX Input values) and so there would be no need to physically centre the pedals to prevent DCS seeing and adding an additional +50. Then pressing the right pedal to return them to the physical centre would then be seen by DCS as -50 and then clicking the trim again whilst the pedals are centred (or close enough, as it's probably impossible to get them exactly centred with the spring removed) would align the physical 0 with DCS' 0 input position.

 

This would obviously only work for people who've removed the spring/tightened the torsion screw on their pedals to make them stay where they're left and not return to centre but that seems to be what a lot of people are doing anyway.

Layman alert! I'm using the SimFFB application and to my understanding it hijacks the DirectInput data from the joystick before sending it to DCS. Could a technique like that work in this case?

Edit: What's the point? Beats me - would be more of an hassle than PeterP's mod.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Hunden Ynk

[Fri13]

+1

 

Just bought G940 and recentering pedals every time I trim is very annoying.

 

I have G940 as well and I don't know what is this thing what people talk about so much.

 

I keep trimming normal (center stick to apply) so the FF stick centers where the cyclic center is trimmed in game.

 

And I don't find a pedals trimming a problem at all.

 

I apply control with pedals as requires and when I am in wanted direction/turning rate and I trim I release pedals to neutral so I don't need to fight against pedals force or try to maintain accuracy but I can just rest my legs normally.

 

I would not like the idea that I need to hold my legs continually on specific position whole flight time when I have trimmed KA-50 to fly specific direction/turning.

[Griffin]

Well you should read and try to understand what people in this thread have been saying about the more realistic pedals. If you have for example KomodoSim pedals, they don't have any centering springs, they should stay where you put them and you can then fly "feet off". That's a more realistic approach and in such such cases the current trimmer implementation would make it impossible to fly without PeterP's mod.

If I still had my old Saitek pedals, I would have removed the centering springs by now anyway to get a more realistic, less restrictive experience.

The original trimming system was indeed built to make it possible to fly the Shark with pedals such as yours which are not designed for helicopter use in any way.

[Grenadey]

+1

 

Just bought G940 and recentering pedals every time I trim is very annoying.

After years of getting used to re-centering the pedals with the G940 I recently just removed the centering spring. All of the choppers in DCS are much easier to fly now.

 

Now all I need is a simple (cheap) way to get that 'damped' feel into them.

[doveman]

Layman alert! I'm using the SimFFB application and to my understanding it hijacks the DirectInput data from the joystick before sending it to DCS. Could a technique like that work in this case?

Edit: What's the point? Beats me - would be more of an hassle than PeterP's mod.

 

The point is PeterP's mod "Unchain Rudder from Trim" resets the (virtual) Rudders to centre when pressing Trim. This means the player can't "dial in" the pedal position and relax their legs but has to readjust them back to where he wants them every time he trims the cyclic.

 

ddahlstrom describes the problems with the mod better here http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=986036&postcount=5

 

With my suggestion, the virtal pedal position would stay where it is when pressing trim and set the current position as 0, so that any user-input would be treated as +/- from that position and not add the additional offset (e.g. +50) from the centre to the current position to the virtual input.

[BitMaster]

I fly the sim only in full sim. I use CH Products controllers and the CH Control Manager.

 

I trim like it is implemented in BS1 and 95% of the time fly in Flight Director. I trim the cyclic and rudder all the time.

 

What's the problem?

 

Rudder also works in the blades and is nice to have when the hydraulics fail and no blue lighted autopilot helps to RTB and land it. I saw a guy land a battle damaged Shark with the whole tail blown off and a tough struggle to get it back to base. But he landed it on the tarmac at the spot he took off from, beautifully.

 

100% correct !

 

It flies the way it comes if you use the Trim button the way it is intended to be used while doing transitions.

 

Press the button, make your turn and hand-fly it back to a condition where you can safely release the Trim button.

 

 

But this might not be the case with a different hardware, spring/FFB etc... and may only apply to my setup ( Logitech Freedom 2.4GHz non-FFB and MS-SW-FFB2 Stick ).

 

I can imagine that some rudders ( I had spring loaded Thrustmaster Elite pedals ) and I guess those springs are too slow, below 0.5 sec, causing a bad yaw etc...

 

Putting that option in does not harm, who wants to stay SIM based, enables or disables it acc. his hardware to achieve Simulation like feeling. Who wishes to ease things may do so too.

 

Having the option doesn't mean u have to turn on ! It just may ease things for people with certain hardware that have no other option.

 

BTW... the FARP didn't repair my KA-50 when it flew home "tailless", I eventually had to bail out in my case, but being able to fly it back home being ripped in pieces is a cool thing to do... I love it.

 

 

To disengage Auto-Heading you don't need to turn FD on, it's totally enough to disengage just Auto-Heading so you can keep the other 3 Autopilots engaged in any configuration. Sometimes it`s desired to just reposition the nose while maintaining perfect hover.

Keeping in hover when engaging FD and going back to FD-Off will almost ever run a wobbeldedobbeldedoo through your chassis.

 

The key in transition is to use the Trim every few seconds while doing the transition to never have a large gap between what the centre is and where it should be. This, with some hours on the stick, leads to smooth operation of the AC. Not paying attention, smoking while flying, having a beer and all that might work with any AC and chopper but not with the KA-50 and it's trimming.

Despite all it's Auto-Pilots and assistance it remains a very demanding aircraft to fly when doing anything but level flight with all engaged. Vortex Spins are always present when dodging, it takes time to get the feeling how fast it can go low and what is too much.

At low speeds and low altitude I that can be tricky.

 

Though she looks easy to fly when she hovers over ground, it's still all handwork, no Autopilot in the KA actually flies it or recovers it.

If used wrong, the assistance systems can do a lot more harm than do good, that's for sure. Wrong mode on or off in the wrong scenario can be lead to disaster if one doesn't recognize the system being in the wrong mode. Who hasn't that in a KA, I guess we all had that and sometimes still encounter such moments of " WTF !!!! why is it doing THIS now and not THAT.. ??? AHHHH the FD is on and thats why that... etc.." kinda thing.

 

 

Bit

Edited December 4, 2013 by BitMaster