Daz85UK Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Does dropping flares as you enter a known Manpad zone actually help at all? I am playing Op Bacteria and have the mission as Hawg flight to help infantry on the ground having a firefight across a river. Everytime with this mission without fail I get shot down by a manpad even when i'm popping flares like a madman. They still just lock, shoot and i'm hit within seconds. This mission seems impossible to me. Does anyone have any tips for this particular mission or avoiding Manpads? Thanks Daz Youtube Channel || Twitch
159th_Viper Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Flares will only delay the launch. Once he launches you have a very narrow window to escape by 1 - Dumping a shedload of flares, preferably in large quantities at one time. and 2 - Very aggressive manoeuvring in order to attempt to save yourself. In something as slow as an A-10 your only prayer is to spot the launch - if not you're just a target drone, and rightfully so, especially against the Igla-S. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
HugePanic Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 just go high and avoid them! you can install tacview and see your mistakes.. :)
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 IRL, flaring constantly would just give a modern IR missile a trail to follow towards your a/c. Dunno how or if this is modelled in DCS. 1
Nealius Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 I guess you should tell these guys: ERr2F7PoqvI aOx_wHhitqk
ENO Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Does dropping flares as you enter a known Manpad zone actually help at all? I am playing Op Bacteria and have the mission as Hawg flight to help infantry on the ground having a firefight across a river. Everytime with this mission without fail I get shot down by a manpad even when i'm popping flares like a madman. They still just lock, shoot and i'm hit within seconds. This mission seems impossible to me. Does anyone have any tips for this particular mission or avoiding Manpads? Thanks Daz I talked to Batu about that and I think the assumption when he made the mission was that pre-emptive flaring (that slower flare dispensing during your attack run) would actually work. I think it DOES work to a certain extent but as Viper points out it may just be to delay the launch. I'd expect that it may delay a launch and also cause the missile to track something other than you... but I know the mission you're talking about and I had plenty of close calls. I went in assuming- from my conversation with Batu, the mission builder- that if I went in with a proactive flare pattern (1 flare every second for 10 cycles for example) I would be safe (safer). It DID work, but I think only by fluke because I was still launched on but wasn't hit. When I'm launched at I have a blitz flare pattern on both sides of my slow profile so I just CMS left or right and activate and bushels of flares come out. (2-4 flares every .25 for 6-8 cycles and repeat as necessary). Though I'm not sure if this is a realistic practice I have enjoyed some success with it. It's tough to stay high in that mission because of your restricted loadouts... not like you can drop an 87 on the hilltop and wipe out half the map's population. "ENO" Type in anger and you will make the greatest post you will ever regret. "Sweetest's" Military Aviation Art
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 I guess you should tell these guys: ERr2F7PoqvI What happens here doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Maybe if intell can tell you the IR missiles the enemy uses are outdated, you could try this tactic. Or maybe it's just showing off. Or maybe it's just scaring the Taliban, I dunno. aOx_wHhitqk That's just a jettison of a whole lot of flares. Just for fun :)
Nealius Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 It doesn't make sense that an IR missile could follow a trail of flares to an aircraft. That would waste the missile's kinetic energy. What makes MORE sense is upgrades in software so that the seeker can filter out the flares and focus on the IR signature of the aircraft.
sobek Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 What makes MORE sense is upgrades in software so that the seeker can filter out the flares and focus on the IR signature of the aircraft. This. Once the IR seeker is locked onto your AC, the flare rejection goes into effect and it will use whatever signal processing it has available to filter flares out based on their characteristics (intensity and spectrum composure probably are strong cues). The only chance you have at spoofing a modern missile is before the lock. After it has locked you, you are done for (unless you defeat it kinematically). The seeker certainly doesn't need a "trail of flares" to find you, after all, at lock it has already found you. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
159th_Viper Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 RL aside, if you're worried about getting sodomised online in a MP environment, keep your fingers off the flare button. Nothing attracts unwanted attention more than a regular flare trail, right up there with the sub-10m helo-hover that kicks up a nice bullseye :D Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) This. Once the IR seeker is locked onto your AC, the flare rejection goes into effect and it will use whatever signal processing it has available to filter flares out based on their characteristics (intensity and spectrum composure probably are strong cues). The only chance you have at spoofing a modern missile is before the lock. After it has locked you, you are done for (unless you defeat it kinematically). The seeker certainly doesn't need a "trail of flares" to find you, after all, at lock it has already found you. Like I said before... And stubborn people here have a hard time reading and understand, I know... Older systems can definitally follow a trail of flares. Are you even familiar with the flare rejection techniques? And how they can be countered? And you're not done for with modern missiles... Ever heard of DIRCAM? Or maybe tactics, like terrain masking? Or climbing into a cloud? Edited June 8, 2013 by Robert1983NL
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 It doesn't make sense that an IR missile could follow a trail of flares to an aircraft. That would waste the missile's kinetic energy. What makes MORE sense is upgrades in software so that the seeker can filter out the flares and focus on the IR signature of the aircraft. You're decades behind, with the software upgrades you're talking about! ;)
159th_Viper Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Or climbing into a cloud? Seriously? You're gonna outclimb a missile travelling at mach 2.5 by ambling into a cloud? Okeeleedokeelee.....:megalol: Oh yes, to avoid any confusion, speaking about post-launch. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
Jona33 Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Seriously? You're gonna outclimb a missile travelling at mach 2.5 by ambling into a cloud? Okeeleedokeelee.....:megalol: No but they can't shoot at you in the first place if you're in clouds. (Without them sweeping across the sky trying to get a tone. Obviously once it's launched a cloud is a terrible idea. Always remember. I don't have a clue what I'm doing
159th_Viper Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 No but they can't shoot at you in the first place if you're in clouds.... Yes, but that's so obvious as to negate stating it in the first instance. I mean it's a MANPAD, you gotta see it too shoot it. Same with terrain masking - you're not gonna be shooting at anthills on the off-chance that there's a hog hiding behind them. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
Jona33 Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Yes, but that's so obvious as to negate stating it in the first instance. I mean it's a MANPAD, you gotta see it too shoot it. Well the best way to defeat a missile is to not get shot at. :D Always remember. I don't have a clue what I'm doing
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Seriously? You're gonna outclimb a missile travelling at mach 2.5 by ambling into a cloud? Okeeleedokeelee.....:megalol: Oh yes, to avoid any confusion, speaking about post-launch. Yeah. If you have 5-6, (maybe more?) seconds to react, and you're near the cloud deck, you could zoom up into it. It's an option to contemplate. Also to avoid follow-on engagements. OR, terrain masking, if you can use the terrain to your advantage, that's always the way to go. Edited June 8, 2013 by Robert1983NL
159th_Viper Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Yeah. If you have 5-6, (maybe more?) seconds to react... You do not. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
Nealius Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Older systems can definitally follow a trail of flares. You just contradicted yourself: IRL, flaring constantly would just give a modern IR missile a trail to follow towards your a/c. Dunno how or if this is modelled in DCS. So which is it? Modern or older system that can supposedly follow a trail of flares? Last I checked older systems were more susceptible to being spoofed by flares. 1
Jona33 Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Yeah. If you have 5-6, (maybe more?) seconds to react, and you're near the cloud deck, you could zoom up into it. It's an option to contemplate. The missile can still track you through the clouds can't it? I doubt the clouds would cloud (oh the wit :p) the signature from your engines. Especially since climbing would make your engines more exposed. (Not sure how much of a difference it would make but might be worth thinking about) Always remember. I don't have a clue what I'm doing
Nealius Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Climbing like that in an attempt to dodge a missile with a combat load would require max power/AB which would make your heat signature even greater.
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 Climbing like that in an attempt to dodge a missile with a combat load would require max power/AB which would make your heat signature even greater. You could even do a throttle chop and zoom up. No requirement for max power/AB per se. Why is everyone suffering from tremendous tunnelvision on this forum?
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 You just contradicted yourself: So which is it? Modern or older system that can supposedly follow a trail of flares? Last I checked older systems were more susceptible to being spoofed by flares. Actually, both could. However, older systems are more likely to give up.
Robert1983NL Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 The missile can still track you through the clouds can't it? I doubt the clouds would cloud (oh the wit :p) the signature from your engines. Especially since climbing would make your engines more exposed. (Not sure how much of a difference it would make but might be worth thinking about) An IR missile can't track you through thick enough clouds. Moisture diffuses IR radiation.
Nealius Posted June 8, 2013 Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) You could even do a throttle chop and zoom up. No requirement for max power/AB per se. Why is everyone suffering from tremendous tunnelvision on this forum? You're suffering from delusional logic. Weight? Drag? Gravity? How are you going to overcome these with a throttle chop? In a loaded F-16 on a computed pop-up attack, initiating a climb at 550kts in MIL power I lose 100kts to gain 4,000 feet. That's in MIL power. Unless you're 1,000 feet under the cloud there's no way in hell you can "zoom" up there at IDLE unless--maybe--you dumped all your stores. Edited June 8, 2013 by Nealius
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