The last days of the Tomcat

[Maverick-90]

sorry mav..........today i"m a little bit confused..........don"t know why......maybe because i have a lot of problems with my lock on..........sorry again.........hope tomorrow everything will be ok.........please don"t get me wrong..........

np ;) ;)

[anivanov]

I don't think the Tomcat is being replaced. I know they have this new tanker, the supernanny or something, which sports no less then 5 wet points. But a replacement for the Tomcat? There must be some misunderstanding here ;-)

 

i agree:cool:

[SuperKungFu]

Yea i havent heard of of a plane to replace the F-14. I think its role is now handed down to the Super Hornet. Either that or the F-35. I just know those 2 planes will be the main task force for the aircraft carrier in the future.

[GGTharos]

I don't think the Tomcat is being replaced. I know they have this new tanker, the supernanny or something, which sports no less then 5 wet points. But a replacement for the Tomcat? There must be some misunderstanding here ;-)

 

You're quite correct. It's being 'replaced' ;)

[D-Scythe]

Oh, come on, how can you be talking about that stupid small plane (with automatic rudders), while this beautiful beast is being retired in favor of a dinky toy?

I remember the times the H-word and the number 18 were a taboo on the flanker forums, but nowdays people are beleiving Boeing propaganda, that their F16 on steroids has the upper hand nowdays, come on, are you really that naive?

 

You seem to have a thing for beasts :p

 

The Tomcat is the best plane ever flown in US inventory (yes, better than the ugly plastic duck with its oh-so sophisticated 2d TVC nozzles).

 

HAHA! Plastic duck, that's a good one :D But I still think it's a killer plastic duck IMO.

[britgliderpilot]

You seem to have a thing for beasts :p

 

 

 

HAHA! Plastic duck, that's a good one :D But I still think it's a killer plastic duck IMO.

 

Plastic Bug, Super Bug, or Super Airbrake.

 

 

No Besmirching of our Beloved Tomcat shall be permitted, Comrade!!

[JonTex]

Yes as much as I dont want to I would have to agree with GG on this one. I hate to see the Tomcat go as much as anyone I absolutely love this jet but it is time for its farewell. Im just glad that I got to work on it in the Navy in VF-154 and VF-14 .... lol good memories of the Cat for me that I will never lose... good times bro. Anyway I thank God for the memories but I would rather see the Cat retire with a good reputation and good history of service than to extend its life and have more problems of over flying its life expectancy and becoming a flying coffin for our aircrews that love her so much.

Its just a lot more stress on a navy fighter than an airforce bird ya know? The B-52 is old the F15 the F16 are old but hell the airforce dont have to smash into an aircraft carrier to land their jets. They arent exposed to the amount of salt water the navy birds are subjected to so unfortunately they dont last as long. Anyway its sad to hear that its finally going but its people like us that never let it die.... and maybe one day they will make a quality flight sim that truely gives it the recognition it deserves by at least modeling it as a flyable in somebodies flight sim. That would help it live on forever.:D

[D-Scythe]

Plastic Bug, Super Bug, or Super Airbrake.

 

 

No Besmirching of our Beloved Tomcat shall be permitted, Comrade!!

 

I think he was referring to the Raptor ;)

[britgliderpilot]

I think he was referring to the Raptor ;)

 

Uh . . . . . whoops.

 

 

Plastic Duck sounds good, then :p

[Stangpilot]

I was lucky enough to witness the last ever performance of the Tomcat @ oceana NAS a few months ago. It was really emotional for everyone there.

 

this plane will live forever as one fo the great ones.

 

 

I was there too, Saturday and Sunday. I had to be there as soon as I heard it was going to perform. Had to see it one last time.....

 

Gus

[Pilotasso]

The tomcat is NOT history. Iran has them flying still.

 

Iran U'akbar!!! :D

[Capt.Instigator]

Yes they have some..but have upsolutely no spare parts for them and in fact..most are worthless for some are missing a part as minute as a hydraulic cylinder or oil pump...

[Guest SLangner]

I first learned of the Tomcat courtesy of a Reader's Digest article back in '72, and have been a fan ever since. However, one needs to remember that the 'Cat was designed as a fleet defense interceptor, and was not really intended for use as a dogfighter or fighter-bomber.

[Force_Feedback]

The tomcat is NOT history. Iran has them flying still.

 

Iran U'akbar!!! :D

 

Yes, hail to Mullah Whatshisname, he's the greatest, for keeping the Tomcat flying :p

 

Let's hope they won't let them crash into buildings. Dang, I almost made a remark about flying Arabs, while I should have made a remark about Saudi flying skillz.

 

BTW, Iran has also reverse-engineered AIM-54As, who has some pics?

[504 Wolverine]

Yes they have some..but have upsolutely no spare parts for them and in fact..most are worthless for some are missing a part as minute as a hydraulic cylinder or oil pump...

 

While spares like radar and such are irreplaceable, parts like hydraulic cylinders and oil pumps can be reverse engineered.

 

Half of their fleet was cannibalized to keep the other half flying. Cannibalization like this is not unheard of, the USAF and other air forces do it to keep types no longer in production in the air.

 

 

[Starlight]

I said what I meant.

 

The airframes are old and will soon no longer be combat worthy, possibly not even flight worthy. It's time is up, unelss they manufactured brand new ones. And we all know where the 'new plane' contract went.

 

Sorry GG, but about 70 airframes between F-14B and D versions are brand new, built in the late 80s and early 90s, so they're not 30 years old. Many other F-14As were upgraded to B or D versions to extend their operational life. Most of the F-14D are even younger (and some people say even more capable) than USAF F-15Es!

 

Ok, the Tomcat was complex and expensive to maintain, but it did offer more than the SH does now. And, the article I quoted was taken from a post made by a qualified person, who also wrote that newer Tomcats are not so maintenance-hungry like they're always depicted.

 

The Tomcat just had bad luck since it only had pilots and admirals to support it. It never had the support of politicians. So the early upgrade plans were cut to fund the A-12 Avenger (we know its end), some TARPS money were cut to fund ATARS (we know how many F-18R carry out recon missions today) and further development/production of F-14D was cut to fund F/A-18E/F SH (we all know that the SH has similar range and weapons load compared to the F-14D :) and that it can carry Phoenix AAMs too :) )

 

If I was leading a CVGB into hostile waters, I'd rather get Tomcats on BARCAP armed with Phoenix, than SHs armed with AIM-120B....

can you imagine, let's say you have a SuperHornet BARCAP flight 150 miles away from the carrier...

CIC: "Vector XXX to take out those supersonic bombers armed with supersonic ASMs"

SuperHornet Leader "Ok guys, we do have neither fuel nor speed to reach them, and even if we were able to do so we could only launch amraams, which can do everything except engage an ASM"

 

There was a reason why to intercept supersonic bombers armed with supersonic missiles was planned a weapon system with a Mach 2+ fighter armed with Mach 5+ AAMs.

Today there are less bombers with the red star, but there are many more with different insignia, and that doesn't make me feel happier at all!

[golfsierra2]

haw about a few photos of the Phabulous Phanotm II one ofthe best fighter AC in history...the first and last ones built.

 

 

Come over to Germany and see some F4-F still flying here ... until they will be replaced by some Typhoons.

[Starlight]

just read this, it's great ;)

and please also read who wrote this article...

 

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200202/ai_n9030925

[Starlight]

BTW, Iran has also reverse-engineered AIM-54As, who has some pics?

 

I read somewhere that they built air-launched HAWKs which look very similar to AIM-54s

[504 Wolverine]

I read somewhere that they built air-launched HAWKs which look very similar to AIM-54s

 

On the Wing glove pylons.

 

[GGTharos]

Sorry GG, but about 70 airframes between F-14B and D versions are brand new, built in the late 80s and early 90s, so they're not 30 years old. Many other F-14As were upgraded to B or D versions to extend their operational life. Most of the F-14D are even younger (and some people say even more capable) than USAF F-15Es!

 

... Right.

 

Ok, the Tomcat was complex and expensive to maintain, but it did offer more than the SH does now. And, the article I quoted was taken from a post made by a qualified person, who also wrote that newer Tomcats are not so maintenance-hungry like they're always depicted.

 

The Tomcat just had bad luck since it only had pilots and admirals to support it. It never had the support of politicians. So the early upgrade plans were cut to fund the A-12 Avenger (we know its end), some TARPS money were cut to fund ATARS (we know how many F-18R carry out recon missions today) and further development/production of F-14D was cut to fund F/A-18E/F SH (we all know that the SH has similar range and weapons load compared to the F-14D :) and that it can carry Phoenix AAMs too :) )

 

I think that, while much maligned, the bug has shown that it's a very capable aircraft. To make a point: The NAVY would NOT have bought an aircraft that didn't work. Like the F-14, the bug has its problems.

 

If I was leading a CVGB into hostile waters, I'd rather get Tomcats on BARCAP armed with Phoenix, than SHs armed with AIM-120B....

can you imagine, let's say you have a SuperHornet BARCAP flight 150 miles away from the carrier...

CIC: "Vector XXX to take out those supersonic bombers armed with supersonic ASMs"

SuperHornet Leader "Ok guys, we do have neither fuel nor speed to reach them, and even if we were able to do so we could only launch amraams, which can do everything except engage an ASM"

 

Which is utter BS. The AMRAAMs don't have range against ASMs, so you don't get to 'watch and repeat', but they have VERY capable seekers (Developped by the same company as the Phoenix's in fact, IIRC), they are VERY maneuverable and they've lately been given 50% more rocket space - which hasn't been taken advantage of yet, but it'll happen.

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the 120 can't engage an ASM. The 120 will do everything a Phoenix will and more /barring/ engagement range. But even for long range shots, the Phoenix has restrictions - if you want a long shot, you need to have a relatively non-maneuvering, rapidly closing target at high altitude - you yourself need to launch from mach 1.5-2.0 at 55-60 thousand feet.

 

There was a reason why to intercept supersonic bombers armed with supersonic missiles was planned a weapon system with a Mach 2+ fighter armed with Mach 5+ AAMs.

 

As far as minizap goes, which according to someone 'in the know' is fairly accurate (and in fact, generous) ... the Phoenix doesn't reach anywhere near mach 5.

 

Today there are less bombers with the red star, but there are many more with different insignia, and that doesn't make me feel happier at all!

 

And it also doesn't matter. The Phoenix would now be facing smaller, more advanced and more maneuverable missiles as opposed to something like the AS-3. Save for range, the AMRAAM is a better weapon.

[Starlight]

Come over to Germany and see some F4-F still flying here ... until they will be replaced by some Typhoons.

 

hehe, look at what Germans are doing to keep their Phantoms in the air

 

 

This pic was taken (by myself) at the latest Italian Open Day at Rivolto AB, September 2005. It shows a detail of a German F-4F taileron mechanism. The one on the right is like it should be. The one on the left shows that some parts are "hand built" from cannibalized airframes :)

[Starlight]

I think that, while much maligned, the bug has shown that it's a very capable aircraft. To make a point: The NAVY would NOT have bought an aircraft that didn't work. Like the F-14, the bug has its problems.

There are also political lobbies. Producing new fighters bring new jobs and a good kick to economy. It looks like recently contractors have more weight in US gov't decisions... ;)

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the 120 can't engage an ASM. The 120 will do everything a Phoenix will and more /barring/ engagement range. But even for long range shots, the Phoenix has restrictions - if you want a long shot, you need to have a relatively non-maneuvering, rapidly closing target at high altitude - you yourself need to launch from mach 1.5-2.0 at 55-60 thousand feet.

And it also doesn't matter. The Phoenix would now be facing smaller, more advanced and more maneuverable missiles as opposed to something like the AS-3. Save for range, the AMRAAM is a better weapon.

 

In most threads and discussions there is the common thought that US fighters in the future could just have to face supermaneuvrable opponents doing "Kobras" and "U-turns" in the sky in a few feet... well there is a nation on this planet which has about 20 supermaneuvrables and about 10,000 non-supermaneuvrables.

First, guess which nation I'm talkin' about, second, guess what can do more harm to a CVBG, 20 supermaneuvrables or 10,000 non-supermaneuvrables even if armed with iron bombs (or even acting as kamikaze)....

 

for the missiles... the Tomcat could engage even smaller targets than AS-3. and many modern ASMs are just faster, not smarter or smaller than the AS-3.

 

As a "tactical" consideration, I'll also add that I think the Phoenix can be a useful weapon system even in a modern combat environment, and that a SuperHornet armed with 12 AMRAAMs can have enough fuel to takeoff, immediately enter the carrier landing pattern and catch wire #3. And no need to dump fuel before landing.

:)

[Starlight]

I think that, while much maligned, the bug has shown that it's a very capable aircraft. To make a point: The NAVY would NOT have bought an aircraft that didn't work. Like the F-14, the bug has its problems.

 

The problem is that when the F-14 replaced the Phantom everybody recognized it had superior qualities. Better speed, range, weapon system, maneuvrability and so on...

Today there are really few people who claim that the F-18E is superior to the F-14. It costs less per unit? Yes but you need 2 planes to carry the same weapon load of the Tomcat.

It requires half maintenace per flight hour? Yes, but it has to fly twice the hours because it's slower and for each flight requires an AAR.

Extending F-14 life time would have costed many billions $$$? how much will cost R&D + testing of a brand new aircraft?

 

You see that there isn't a clear answer to some trivial questions, without taking into account politics and economic growth...

[upyr1]

Come over to Germany and see some F4-F still flying here ... until they will be replaced by some Typhoons.

hi,

Know that's a bit of topic for the thread guess I'lll start a new one...