Unrealistic VRS?

[jay43]

Hi jay43...I'd be willing to bet your successful in your approaches then not. I look forward to flying with you on multi-play.

 

I will look forward to that Flyer 1 in 20 of my landings these days ends in a ball of fire.

I have put a lot of hours in and just love humming around in the Huey its so rewarding to fly.

[flyer49]

I have to admit, I too get lazy and get my self into a situation that's not desirable. I found that flying the real UH-1 was a workout and after every flight I felt tired. This is why I like flying the DCS Huey...when I complete a mission...I feel like I just finished a workout...especially if there was a lot of hovering or orbiting required to compete the mission. This is when I let my guard down and get lazy causing bad things to happen...lol

[marker]

Hi marker...I will be happy to make a video when I figure our how to make the video. If you can instruct me on how to make the video, I will do so.

 

Hi Mate

 

I use this, well I did use it until it stopped working with my card :(

 

http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm

 

MSI Afterburner, within the settings there is a video capture tab. You can configure a key or multiple keys to start/stop the video capture, also configure the folder within your PC that the video will be stored within.

 

I had my capture settings at MJPG Compression for codec used, 80% quality, Frame Size (Full Frame), Framerate 25fps, framelimit disabled.

 

I set my start / stop recording button to scroll lock. The video will then be recorded to what ever folder you specified with the title DCS_Date_time.avi.

 

Depending on the size of the upload I might convert it from 1080p to 720p to save my upload time to youtube.

 

You can use windows movie maker to do that, I use premier pro for video editing.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Please ask away if you don't understand anything, apparently I'm hopeless at instructions ;)

 

EDIT

 

What you can do, is watch the track back and use your F2 and F3 buttons for different mouse movement views and flybys while recording.

[jay43]

I have to admit, I too get lazy and get my self into a situation that's not desirable. I found that flying the real UH-1 was a workout and after every flight I felt tired. This is why I like flying the DCS Huey...when I complete a mission...I feel like I just finished a workout...especially if there was a lot of hovering or orbiting required to compete the mission. This is when I let my guard down and get lazy causing bad things to happen...lol

 

 

That is so true Flyer, have you done any of the Campaign missions yet i'm worn out after doing one of those my hands hurt my arms ache but the satisfaction of seeing Mission Success is well worth the pain.

[flyer49]

Hey Jay...yea...I've got 12 of the missions completed and all are challenging. Like you, I feel sense of accomplishment when I get one under my belt. I'm actually looking forward to completing the campaign and starting some of the private missions that are being created by our peers.

[jay43]

Hey Jay...yea...I've got 12 of the missions completed and all are challenging. Like you, I feel sense of accomplishment when I get one under my belt. I'm actually looking forward to completing the campaign and starting some of the private missions that are being created by our peers.

 

 

I haven't completed all of them yet got as far as Patrols and that damn leader just doesn't maintain a stable flight pattern, he says speed 100 but then he is up then down then almost coming to a stop in mid air he almost caused a crash with the other AI Huey's and I always lose site of him grrrr.

As you are a pilot is this normal behaviour.

[Pman]

I dont know if it helps, but at Legends we had 2 pilots from the Italian airforce try out the Huey and they said that the sim was very good except for the entry into VRS

 

Now I know this is a beta etc but I can only go on what they said, they had over 5000 hours logged in the Huey.

 

They both had 2 goes at landing the Huey and on all 4 attempts they entered VRS. The main thing they said was that they have set settings for an approach and when they used them they entered VRS when outside of the VRS envelope. They laughed and said if that was how it really works they would have been dead 20 years ago

 

I am sure belsimtek have more data and are aware that for the moment its wrong so there will be an update in works

[jay43]

I dont know if it helps, but at Legends we had 2 pilots from the Italian airforce try out the Huey and they said that the sim was very good except for the entry into VRS

 

Now I know this is a beta etc but I can only go on what they said, they had over 5000 hours logged in the Huey.

 

They both had 2 goes at landing the Huey and on all 4 attempts they entered VRS. The main thing they said was that they have set settings for an approach and when they used them they entered VRS when outside of the VRS envelope. They laughed and said if that was how it really works they would have been dead 20 years ago

 

I am sure belsimtek have more data and are aware that for the moment its wrong so there will be an update in works

 

 

Interesting.

[Pman]

What about that real life Huey driver, who said something about 700ft/m to be a known threshold beyond which the VRS will occur?

 

I personally have found that i can maintain a 1000ft/m constant descend rate but with a lower angle of attack on the blades, because i only had 100% fuel and no weapons which makes it much lighter, so this matters and that's a reason why i could descend at a higher rate..., yet i don't even know what to believe anymore, because the ED testers are saying that a 300ft/m should be the barrier beyond which the vortex ring state would occur (of course this should happen for a given total helicopter weight and height (density counts))! I've done this on a 0 wind component.

 

Another thing which i find quite bad is that even if dropping almost perfectly vertical at 1000ft/m constantly..., you'll end up "hitting" the ground effect like a leaf falling on the grass...! The ground effect seems to have such tremendous power, that even at the inertia and momentum that the helicopter had accumulated in a 1000ft/m (5.08 meters per second) constant vertical descend, it stops the heli very abruptly at about 0.3...0.5m from the ground giving it a vertical deceleration of around 0.5..0.6g's as it enters the ground effect, (so the blades would carry 1.6g's in that stopping distance), leaving you at ~0,3m above the ground like everything was ok!:music_whistling:

 

Here's a video of it..., because i can't use that track/recording feature that our sim is provided with..., it's totally useless, because i've tried 3 particular times to do another track then review it and..., a different story came up every time!:thumbup:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZP5euMNXDQ

 

As a short conclusion...: Exaggerated/very sharp transition from normal flight behaviour (unstalled blades) to an abrupt lift loss from the blades when entering the vortex ring..., it launches like a rocket towards the ground! Also that air cushion which comes linked with the ground effect is quite exaggerated, it almost stops you in place over the ground, reducing like more than 50% of the horizontal force component. At higher speeds and close to the ground however, the ground effect is close to null though!

 

This that I have highlighted matches what those 2 pilots at Legends told me, that 500ft was perfectly safe although a little bumpy ride wise but no VRS with 28-30psi

 

If you do that in the sim you go into VRS

 

Which either means the sim is wrong or those guys died 20 years ago. Hard to argue with 2 guys who have that much experience tbh

 

But as I said, its in beta and no doubt belsimtek are aware of the problem

[thrawn]

Hi thrawn...I'm more of a visual pilot like you. The way I would explain the graph in visual terms is that when doing an approach not only should you keep your forward speed at around 20 to 30 kts and vertical descent around 300 ft/min but also pick a spot on your windscreen about five or six inches above your instrument panel. Pick a spot that's easily tracked like the hash marks at the end of the runway or an intersection, Hold that spot during your approach by increasing and decreasing your collective as necessary.

 

That would be about a 20 degree approach angle. The closer your selected target landing spot get to your instrument panel the steeper your getting and entering the danger area where settling with power exists. As you can see by the graph this danger area is from an angle of 40 (which would be about where the top of your instrument panel is) to 80 degrees (which is about where you would be looking through your chin bubble ...maybe even through your pedals). You should never come to a hover before touchdown. A proper approach to the ground is just that...an approach to the ground. You should "fly" your helicopter to the ground by always moving forward. Don't try to "find" the ground...just fly the aircraft until you touch down. My instructor use to tell me...forward and down...forward and down...forward and down. I still say this to myself today and it helps me remember how to make a proper approach.

 

As I said in an earlier post, your approach may seem exaggerated and exceedingly slow but that is the way a helicopter makes an approach (unless your doing a combat approach which is a much higher speed but still slow in comparison to a fixed wing approach). I bring up fixed wing because fixed wing driver are use to higher approach speeds and steeper approach angles so your approach sight picture is different and this causes fixed wing guys some anguish...I hope this help explain the above graph.

 

 

Thanks Flyer49. I'll have to work on this. I've been trying to pull it into a hover about 2-3 feet off the ground. I'll have to work on getting that perfect approach straight to a landing. With any luck I'll actually land ON the helipad not off in a field. I doubt my ground crew would appreciate having to take a hike to wherever I decided to drop it

[GunfighterSIX]

VRS requires near vertical rate of descent at least less than ETL. You can descend as fast as you want about slow speeds because you are out running your down wash. And auto rotational decent won’t cause VRS because you don’t have a down wash at that point so you can descend flat pitch with no airspeed and not get into VRS. Most people are crashing the huey because they are getting into power droop crossing ETL and not pulling in the power to compensate in time.

You need low airspeed less than ETL

Decent greater than 300 ft. a min

And be using at least 20% -100% power applied.

[TimeKilla]

pman that's really good information it would be great if they could post here to the Dev's, I've read from a few sources that the Huey was really hard to get into VRS and tend to believe this also.

 

It would be great if we could get more real Huey pilots that how been checked out able to post and give the Dev's some feed back on this matter as it seems like the only area where its still a'little greyed out.

 

Would love for this to be dealt with before it comes out of beta.

[sondo214]

I dont know if it helps, but at Legends we had 2 pilots from the Italian airforce try out the Huey and they said that the sim was very good except for the entry into VRS

 

Now I know this is a beta etc but I can only go on what they said, they had over 5000 hours logged in the Huey.

 

They both had 2 goes at landing the Huey and on all 4 attempts they entered VRS. The main thing they said was that they have set settings for an approach and when they used them they entered VRS when outside of the VRS envelope. They laughed and said if that was how it really works they would have been dead 20 years ago

 

I am sure belsimtek have more data and are aware that for the moment its wrong so there will be an update in works

 

 

I have this feeling about VRS too...

[sorcer3r]

VRS seems to be improved in 1.2.6.

Will they try it again? :thumbup:

 

 

I dont know if it helps, but at Legends we had 2 pilots from the Italian airforce try out the Huey and they said that the sim was very good except for the entry into VRS

 

Now I know this is a beta etc but I can only go on what they said, they had over 5000 hours logged in the Huey.

 

They both had 2 goes at landing the Huey and on all 4 attempts they entered VRS. The main thing they said was that they have set settings for an approach and when they used them they entered VRS when outside of the VRS envelope. They laughed and said if that was how it really works they would have been dead 20 years ago

 

I am sure belsimtek have more data and are aware that for the moment its wrong so there will be an update in works

[Metal Hawk]

I only bought Huey for it's flight model (don't care much for using it in combat within DCS). And I was very disappointed with what I saw. But with 1.2.6 it seems they've improved it quite a bit. I still think they need to tweak it but even in the current state I am actually glad I bought it. Hopefully they will get it right by the time it goes out of beta. Maybe they should ask more real life Huey pilots what they think.

[heloguy]

That doesn't make any sense to me so if I am descending at 300ft/min whats happening am I entering VRS or am I avoiding VRS theres no middle road.

 

From your figures it appears the whole VRS is a total toss of a coin gamble here we go we might get in VRS we might not.

 

 

There are no set numbers for vertical speed, forward speed, and power. It's all based on gross weight, and density altitude.

 

No one has ever tested an aircraft and made a chart, to my knowledge, that specifically tells you the parameters that an aircraft will get into VRS at specific gross weights, pressure altitudes, and temperatures. There is just advisement that if you are at least descending at 300 fpm, little to no forward airspeed, and some power applied (between 20-100%). If you are in those parameters, you are taking a chance, and you need to be able to recognize the symptoms in the aircraft.

 

Unfortunately for sim players, a lot of those symptoms are vibration and feel, but luckily, Belsimtek has included the feature of the model itself vibrating, which some people have hated, and some people have liked.

 

I for one love it, as I can fly on the sim, and know pretty much what's going on, especially transverse flow.

 

Btw, if you find yourself in suspected VRS, you just need to fly out of it, either forward (preferred), or any other direction really. Hopefully you have enough altitude when you figure out.

Edited September 9, 2013 by heloguy

[VampireNZ]

I have seen a lot of interesting comments regarding VRS in the Huey, it seems to be a major threat/issue.

 

Suffice to say I figured I would just post what our Flight Manuals say concerning the matter of VRS...(i.e not much as it's not really an issue!). Not sure where ppl are getting figures like slower than 3-500ft/min or death etc.

 

Note: "Vortex ring is rarely encountered in this helicopter"

 

Edited October 21, 2013 by VampireNZ