VTJS17_Fire Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Hi folks, I read the actual version of the flight manual and found this information in the chapter for CMS (dispense program): Mix of chaff and flares released at a low interval over a long period of time. When entering a target area, you may wish to activate such a program to act as a preventative measure against both infrared and radar guided air defense systems. In the A-10C beta phase that tactic wasn't functional. You can deploy flares all the time and the Igla (for instance) could lock and fire on you anyway. Is preventive chaff and flare in 1.2.5 functional? Does this prevent or brake a IR-lock? Thanks in advance, regards Fire Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
RIFLE_JTAC_TRAINING Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 VJS, I am not sure if it has an effect in the simulation. However I always make a practice of doing it moments before weapon release as I seem to develop tunnel vision and really ignore my surroundings. The practice is sound in RL. Look at super cobras alone once they pop. Just a crazy cocktail at times before weapons release and on egress. FYI 63 My CAS (Close air support) JTAC Channel: RIFLE - YouTube RIFLE's Discord: https://discord.gg/cmDCrr4Z2g Publications JTAC Bible (see/know chapter #5) https://fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_09_3.pdf J-FIRE pocket guide (Don't do battle without it!) BK2 (fas.org)
PFunk1606688187 Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Anything to do with the locking of Anti Air systems is kind of murky and uncertain in this game, certainly a lot of real life logic seems to inapplicable. Of course it would be simple enough to make a mission where you fly through the edge of an Igla's range without and then with a preventative program and see what happens. Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.
VTJS17_Fire Posted August 24, 2013 Author Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Anything to do with the locking of Anti Air systems is kind of murky and uncertain in this game, certainly a lot of real life logic seems to inapplicable. Of course it would be simple enough to make a mission where you fly through the edge of an Igla's range without and then with a preventative program and see what happens. I did it. The Igla could lock me and fired, but the missiles didn't hit me. But I think, the lock shouldn't be possible, with preventive dispense. regards, Fire Edited August 25, 2013 by VTJG17_Fire Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
PFunk1606688187 Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 I did it. The Igla could lock me and fired, but the missiles hit me every time. But I think, the lock shouldn't be possible, with preventive dispense. regards, Fire Jammers don't work, preventative chaff/flare doesn't work. No wonder people learn to fly the A-10 by CCRP bombing targets with JDAMs at 20 000 staring through the SA killing TGP.:cry: Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.
secret1962 Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) I think countermeasures in general are quite bugged and not functional... It seems like the more we progress, the more the things are getting screwed up. Edited August 24, 2013 by secret1962
Paganus Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 Is preventive chaff and flare in 1.2.5 functional? Does this prevent or brake a IR-lock? Yes. Chaff and Flares don't prevent an enemy from launching a weapon, but they have a chance to prevent the weapon from tracking on your aircraft. They just tweaked chaff in a recent patch because it was more effective than they wanted.
Brisse Posted August 24, 2013 Posted August 24, 2013 To me, it seems that chaff and flare is only useful in the very final stage of defending against missiles, in the simulator. It does not seem to do anything to the launch platform, or if the missile is far away.
kk0425 Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 Jammers don't work, preventative chaff/flare doesn't work. No wonder people learn to fly the A-10 by CCRP bombing targets with JDAMs at 20 000 staring through the SA killing TGP.:cry: I was complaining about something very similar other week actually. Mission creators seem to love placing manpads all over the place in spots that are very difficult to find so every time I think I'm clear to get down in the weeds with my gun I get about 10 IR missiles up my tail.
maturin Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 The Igla-S is crazy resistant to countermeasures. When a few leaked into Libya, everyone freaked out.
RIFLE_JTAC_TRAINING Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 Countermeasures may not work but I am fairly successful shaking off a missile. What I mean is shaking left to right a few times and sometimes I just don't get hit. In other cases I can hear the missile streak right by me! And then other times my cockpit lights up with sounds and others well.... I die. On another note I am confident getting information on how this actually works is next to impossible. What I mean is acquiring information on past tests on the success or failure of tests with jammers and certain missile systems and how to defeat them or if they were even defeated! FYI 63 My CAS (Close air support) JTAC Channel: RIFLE - YouTube RIFLE's Discord: https://discord.gg/cmDCrr4Z2g Publications JTAC Bible (see/know chapter #5) https://fas.org/irp/doddir/dod/jp3_09_3.pdf J-FIRE pocket guide (Don't do battle without it!) BK2 (fas.org)
ralfidude Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 Jammers are not incorporated in this simulator. They only work against air targets, not against any ground targets. Confirmed and signed off by ED testers. I had a huge thread about this some time ago. PS: Electronic warfare is something they want to introduce later on, meaning never in our lifetime. [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC]
Suchacz Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 As you can see in this vid, preventive flare releasing DOES work... 1:03, 1:23 Per aspera ad astra! Crucial reading about DCS: Black Shark - Black Shark and Coaxial Rotor Aerodynamics, Black Shark and the Trimmer, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 1, Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 2
VTJS17_Fire Posted August 25, 2013 Author Posted August 25, 2013 Jammers are not incorporated in this simulator. They only work against air targets, not against any ground targets. You mean preventative jamming, right? With a valid lock or missile launch, the jammer does his work very good, IMO. regards, Fire Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
159th_Viper Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 With a valid lock or missile launch, the jammer does his work very good, IMO. Are you referring to the auto-dispensing of countermeasures? That's not the jammer: Come launch the SAM has already burnt through your jammer a looong time ago so yes, it's useless. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
VTJS17_Fire Posted August 25, 2013 Author Posted August 25, 2013 Are you referring to the auto-dispensing of countermeasures? That's not the jammer: Come launch the SAM has already burnt through your jammer a looong time ago so yes, it's useless. Nope. I meant the jammer. I tested it yesterday with a SA-6. The SPJ startet jamming as the SA-6 has a valid lock and prevented a missile launch at a range, where the SAM without jammer has launched a missile. As I stopped jamming, the SAM launched the missile. I activated the jammer again and broke the lock. regards, Fire Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
squishypitbull Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 preventative will work ish....but u have to understand the placement of the CMS if you put it out and its not in the path of the radar or IR it usually wont draw the radar off..if u dispense and move away from the CMS then they have no use....also when evading and or fighting remember that chaff flares will only work if u put them out when the missile is tracking close to you ....otherwise whats the point ????? also as with everything understand how the missiles are trying to kill u and maneuver according to your airspeed and altitude to defeat.
Crescendo Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) Regardings flares, it all depends how you define "preventative". If by preventative you mean delaying a missile launch by denying a lock for some period of time, there is zero effect. Preemptively pumping out flares will not stop a SAM from locking up your aircraft and firing at its predetermined range. This is a limitation in the SAM AI logic - they fire at a certain range no matter what, and whatever countermeasures you decide to dispense has nothing to do with it. (I tested this over a year ago, and the results should still be valid as I don't think the SAM logic has changed. Check here if you're interested: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1381167&postcount=11) However, if you pump out enough flares around the time you think the missile is going to be launched, there is a chance that the missile will track the dispensed flares and be thusly defeated. So, what does this all mean? It means that running a typical 'preemptive flare program' that dispenses one flare every second or so will not prevent a SAM launch by delaying or denying a seeker lock. It will also not protect you against a SAM launch that occurs while you are running this program, because one flare every second or so is not a sufficient number of flares to reliably fool the SAM seeker. Rather, in the DCS World game environment (as opposed to the real world), you are much better off not wasting the flares on a typical preemptive program. It makes much more sense to run a missile defense program (lots and lots of flares per second) when you think you are in a vulnerable phase of flight. To reiterate, this is because the SAM is going to be launched no matter what, so it's best to save your flares while you can, and then use a whole bunch at the critical time. To sum up: 1. It depends how you define "preventative". Remember, you cannot delay or deny a launch, but you can make that launched missile track your countermeasures if you have dispensed enough ahead of time. 2. We should all be very careful when we talk about 'preemptive flare programs', lest we confuse ourselves into thinking that we are somehow delaying or preventing launches. We aren't. So it might be better to think in terms of 'preemptive missile defense programs', that is, programs that run preemptively but with large numbers of countermeasures intended to defeat a launched SAM, not delay or deny or hinder it in some fashion before it leaves its tube. Edited August 25, 2013 by Crescendo . [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Maverick-X Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 As you can see in this vid, preventive flare releasing DOES work... 1:03, 1:23 Well, that is not quite what preventive flares are ment to be. In this video a quite large amount of flares is fired. This didn't prevent (perhaps delay, I dunno) the launch, but ofc it confused the missile. So I'd say preventive flares in common sense (1flare each s) is quite useless, but flares pre-launch are usefull.
kk0425 Posted August 25, 2013 Posted August 25, 2013 Nope. I meant the jammer. I tested it yesterday with a SA-6. The SPJ startet jamming as the SA-6 has a valid lock and prevented a missile launch at a range, where the SAM without jammer has launched a missile. As I stopped jamming, the SAM launched the missile. I activated the jammer again and broke the lock. regards, Fire Maybe provide a track of that? I just tried and got a launch at the same distance from a SA-6 site with jammer on and off.
ralfidude Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) You must have been doing something weird. Ed testers have confirmed this for me, NO JAMMERS against SAMs are effective. They have not been modeled, not yet at least. Here is a thread I made a while ago pertaining to this, oh and by the way EOS on the Froggy helps against heat seekers so that might be helping in that plane, but as far as the jammer pods go, nope: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100247 So as you can see from multiple sources and my own testing, they don't work. It's not exactly a big secret or anything. Here is a summary from that thread: Ok so to summarize my findings: SA-11 (average skill) @ 3,500m WITHOUT JAMMERS Radar contact at 84Km Locked on and fired at 26Km WITH JAMMERS Same Repeated with SA-11 system on Excellent skill, exact same results -------------------------------------- PATRIOT missile system (same set up) WITHOUT JAMMERS Locked at 54km Fired at 45km Exact same results with Jammers on, and with Patriot on excellent --------------------------------------- OSA @ 1,900m It acts weird because: RWR contact at 24km Locked at 14km He then UN-locks you and turns off radar completely, then engages you at 4-3km Same results with with jammers and excellent skill AND HIGHER ALTITUDE to account for EOS system. ------------------------------------- KUB @1,900m This was peculiar: WITHOUT JAMMERS Locked at 28km Launched at 20Km WITH JAMMERS Locked at 28Km Launch at 21Km (Lol, he gains a Km with jammers on lols) -------------------------------------- Conclusion: Basically everything that has been said here. On the Frogfoot, the two jammer pods are just sitting pretty on your wings. That's it. So from now on, don't bother putting them on, unless you are gonna use it against aircraft. Have not repeated the test with an A-10 yet, but if I get around to it, I will post my findings. I repeated the experiment with the A-10: Ok here is the update with the same setups done on an A-10C with jammer pods at 6 thousand feet. When i used jammers, I forced the jammers every time they would turn off, since some systems do not lock you and the ECM turns off. When I got close to the launch point, I made sure the ECM was definitely running (Correct jammer type was used "SAM-1 or SAM-2 type" and popping chaff to see if it helped (it did not). Chaff only helped defeat certain missiles once they were already airborne. ------------------------------------------------- SA-10 (Expert) Without jammer: Radar picked up at around 70 miles Launched at 30 miles WITH jammer: Same result ------------------------------------------- SA-11 (Expert) Fired at 15 miles (With and without jammers) -------------------------------------------- SA-15 (Standard) Without jammers: Radar picked up at 15 miles Fired at 5.5 miles With Jammers: Radar picked up at 11 miles Fired at 5.5 miles -------------------------------------------- SA-3 Locked at 19 miles Fired at 7 miles same with and without jammers ----------------------------------------- SA-6 Locked at (far far away) Fired at 14 miles same with and without jammers ------------------------------------------ SA-8 Fired at 3.5 miles same with and without jammers ----------------------------------------------------- NOTE: We experimented with altitude engagements, but it made no difference. The only time altitude was a factor, was when we tried LOW LEVEL engagements. The SA-11 site did not launch when that low at all, got to the site itself. However it had nothing to do with the ECM. We tried it with them on, and off, it made no difference in that situation. NOTE 2: We also experimented with setting the SA-11 site to normal from expert. Engagement range difference was 1 mile only, no difference ECM wise. Edited August 31, 2013 by ralfidude [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC]
ENO Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Yes this has been discussed a few different times... and those in the know agree that it's largely placebo. The only thing I see above that can confirm my suspicions is that jamming only prevents a launch until you are WELL INSIDE a missiles kill zone. One of the admitted shortcomings of SAM AI is that they'll launch on you at maximum range (if you'll let them). This gives you a pretty good opportunity to avoid them. If you inhibit their launch by jamming, allowing you to get to their half-life range... they have more energy and give you less time to evade. I thought I had some luck with the preventative flaring in OP BACTRIA back in the day where there was one particular mission where they want you to gun run on a position protected by IGLAs. I was flaring about 2 every second or so on my run in, got launched on and I can't recall in any experience I've had that I've ever been able to avoid an IGLA launched from that close... but it missed. Was it because it wasn't supposed to work, or because I got lucky... who knows. But as a general rule I think it's a good habit to get into so you're used to it when it DOES actually work. "ENO" Type in anger and you will make the greatest post you will ever regret. "Sweetest's" Military Aviation Art
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