P-51D BFM

[Leviathan]

Hi,

 

I'm really new to all the dogfighting stuff, I know some of the theory behind it, but putting that to action is extremely difficult to me. I've played the quick start dogfighting mission approx. 10 times now, and whilst the Fw190 got on my tail every single time, but before it gets the opportunity to shoot me down, I always break my Mustang or crash into the ground.

My problems are that

 

1. Every turn I do inevitably ends up in a violent snap roll, mostly followed by a high speed stall

2. Nearly every split-S maneuver ends up in a spin or sometimes, when doing the roll to early snaps off both wings

3. In this default dogfight mission the Fw190 always out-turns me in the beginning head-on clash, no matter how early or late I start to turn.

 

So really the problem isn't that the Fw190 is too strong, but more that I find the P-51 to "instable" when doing BFM. Part of the problem might be that in Falcon BMS yit's pretty hard to effectively stall an modern day computerised F-16, but these WW2 things seem so unreliable in what they are designed for: aerobatics (at least if piloted by me).

 

Any suggestions or guidelines about how to steer the Mustang in air combat without stalling during every single maneuver (e.g. any special things to take into account, aside from "take it easy with the stick")?

[Masje_nl]

Well not being a really good pilot myself, the thing that made a difference for me was the curves i used for the roll and pitch.

 

so do a search to find the relevent thread. and try away ;-)

and keep at it.

only just bought rudder peddels. so'm even worse then i was....

[gavagai]

Buy a force feedback joystick, either a msffb2 or a logitech G940. You'll have to find one used because neither is made anymore. To me this piece of hardware is just as important as rudder pedals or trackir.

[Merlin-27]

Hi,

...I've played the quick start dogfighting mission approx. 10 times now, and whilst the Fw190 got on my tail every single time, but before it gets the opportunity to shoot me down, I always break my Mustang or crash into the ground.

 

The instant action mission really isn't the best introduction to the P-51. If possible create a mission in the editor were there is a little more separation between you and the enemy to start. This allows you to trim the aircraft, adjust the sight and feel out the plane before you are pulling those high g's. Also you may want to decrease the fuel level just a bit to help with those snap rolls at first. (try 20-30%) Then once you get a feel for that behavior you can add fuel back. And most of all, keep practicing.

[seikdel]

If you're stuck without FFB, watch your inputs and be gentler on the stick. The Mustang doesn't have an AOA gauge, so your only hint that you're exceeding a decent alpha is the buffeting and the wind screaming as you try to force her through the sky belly-first.

[cichlidfan]

... is the buffeting and the wind screaming as you try to force her through the sky belly-first.

 

Wow, the wind. OK, I thought it was me screaming. :D

[WildBillKelsoe]

actually seikdel is right. I too use this feature. The best way to defeat AI is to be unpredictable and fly away from him. You can force him to crash when done right.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

well, probably an answer you dont want to hear...but i think you just need more practice...really thats it.

some suggest curvature settings, but i dont think that they are necessary at all, except for the rudder maybe, where it really can help to have a more stable plane.

for joystick axis, i wouldnt recommend curvature settings or deadzones, as this will make you even more unstable on the edge of a stall.

the stang is a very sensitive plane, and you will have to learn to only give subtle inputs to it.

what you can do, if not done already, is to enable natural headmovement in the game options.for some reason i had it disabled at the beginning, and found it really handy once i enabled it, as you can see the buffeting more clearly.

the wing snapping is definitely a sign of you beeing too fast and more importantly pulling too hard in your turns...be gentle with the stick, especiallly when flying fast...you can recover a stall, but you cant without wings.

 

i always have the elevator trim set to neutral during combat...i found that the plane seemed to spin more quickly when trimmed to anything else(dont know whether this is still true though)

[Double_D]

actually seikdel is right. I too use this feature. The best way to defeat AI is to be unpredictable and fly away from him. You can force him to crash when done right.

 

Yes, even though so far I haven't been able to shoot the AI down..I have managed to make him crash trying to catch me...on moves not expected...twice I made him crash into the oil rigs...

[mmtaraval]

Does anyone use flaps to gain a extra maneuverability during slow speed turns or climbs to help with the turn radius and to offset the stall.

[VincentLaw]

Does anyone use flaps to gain a extra maneuverability during slow speed turns or climbs to help with the turn radius and to offset the stall.

The manual doesn't say anything about it, but I use about 5-10 degrees flaps during combat. Obviously it slows the airplane down, but it seems to help. Flaps also help with shooting ground targets since you can point the nose down more without hitting the ground.

Edited August 29, 2013 by VincentLaw

[Echo38]

The real-life training resources for the P-51 do recommend using the combat flap setting (10 degrees), but sparingly. You generally wouldn't want to use it in a climb; flaps are terrible for sustained climbing. Although they can get you higher in a shorter distance than no flaps, it isn't energy-efficient or even time-efficient. Just distance-efficient.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Echo38

[westr]

If you're stuck without FFB, watch your inputs and be gentler on the stick. The Mustang doesn't have an AOA gauge, so your only hint that you're exceeding a decent alpha is the buffeting and the wind screaming as you try to force her through the sky belly-first.

 

^ he's right you're inputs are too fierce. You need gentle progressive input on the stick applying correct rudder input to centre the ball when turning its about finding a fine line between the limit of keeping the aircraft under control and going into a snap roll you will start to learn how much input you can apply. Setting up your controls properly can make a big difference I have my pitch and roll with 0 deadzone and curvature to prevent to much Sensitivity hope you solve it

[Hadwell]

the p-51 is designed to do immelmans, hammerheads, and power dives...

 

not flat turns and slow and low stuff...

 

never use combat flaps in a p-51, because your goal is to keep your energy up as high as physically possible, that means keeping your drag as low as possible so flaps are nothing but detrimental, and a bad thing...

 

the key is... not even trying to turn at all... that's how you fly the p-51.. here is how you turn a p-51

 

and if you're in a situation where you can't do that, flip the picture upside down and try it that way...

 

and how i keep from spinning out is i carefully watch my horizon and keep my plane trimmed so when i see it start to dip to one side i let up on the stick a bit before it starts to spin

 

reason why the immelman works good for the p-51 is because the elevator doesn't play nice with the rudder or ailerons... if u notice the elevator never gets used while the plane is actually turning...

Edited August 30, 2013 by Hadwell

[gavagai]

never use combat flaps in a p-51, because your goal is to keep your energy up as high as physically possible, that means keeping your drag as low as possible so flaps are nothing but detrimental, and a bad thing...

 

the key is... not even trying to turn at all... that's how you fly the p-51..

 

Good advice for fighting a slower, more maneuverable adversary. Will cause you to have a hard time against an adversary like the Fw 190D-9, and a 262? Forget it.

 

No fighter is an "energy fighter" or "boom n zoom" fighter in an absolute sense. You must adapt your tactics to the situation at hand.

Edited August 30, 2013 by gavagai

[Echo38]

Gav's right. There really isn't a black-and-white, all-encompassing rule regarding combat flaps or the use of horizontal maneuvers. As the real-life P-51 handbook said, you can use combat flaps to tighten your turn, but be careful not to do it too long or too often. Turns--with or without flaps--can be a bad tactic against certain aircraft under certain conditions, but can be necessary in other situations.

 

As for the elevator, as long as you aren't at max alpha, you shouldn't have a problem altering the elevator position while also moving the ailerons & rudder. Vice versa, too. A coordinated turn, even just slightly below max alpha, will allow you to input any control without a problem, as long as you don't overdo things.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Echo38

[Merlin-27]

Speaking in absolutes is something that usually gets people in trouble. To say NEVER use "combat" flaps which are part of the design of the aircraft is a bit odd to me. That first notch of flaps on the P-51D is a beautiful thing when used at the right time. (I'm basing my opinion on sim experience and written accounts) On the other hand if you are looking to fly slow in the P-51 you will probably get eaten up pretty quick. It's hard to find too many aircraft of the era that can handle any flaps over 350mph so why wouldn't you use it as an advantage. Of course, if you are facing a speed/energy mismatch you have to be careful with anything that will bleed energy i.e. flaps, elevator, rudder etc. It will become more of an issue when we are not fighting a mirror image of ourselves (MP) and I think that is when everyone will really begin noticing the strengths and weaknesses of the airframe.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Good advice for fighting a slower, more maneuverable adversary. Will cause you to have a hard time against an adversary like the Fw 190D-9, and a 262? Forget it.

 

No fighter is an "energy fighter" or "boom n zoom" fighter in an absolute sense. You must adapt your tactics to the situation at hand.

 

true word.

you cant just say, "never do horizontal turns", and especially not "only do immelmans or split-s"

especially when your oponent is in the same plane and on your six...both of the above mentioned manouvers are pretty much the worst thing you can do in that situation.

in theory, of course, staying fast and exchange speed with altitude is a good thing, but thats true for all planes in combat not only the stang.

[Leviathan]

Anyone tried a A-10c vs. Musting guns only dogfight in multiplayer (I'm sure someone has).

 

How do they compare to each other? I mean, the P-51 is the designated fighter, but both are subsonic and the A-10c has a good turn radius, plus the bigger gun and a pretty tough layout...

[xcom]

I really hope we get some more toys on sunday :D

 

I can say for sure that the best way to fly the P-51D is with a wingman, Drag&Bag, Boom&Zoom, Loose Duece, Double Attack. using all these tactics is your best choice.

Whenever you find a stronger advisary your best solution is to team up on him, a good team can take out the best pilot without much trouble.

 

That being said, good teamwork is not a substitute to practicing and getting better at BFM, ACM & Gunnery.

 

@Leviathan - P-51 turns much better, A-10 is faster ultimitly.

[BSS_Vidar]

If you're getting a flick out during tighter turns, i.e., one wing is departing, you're not using enough rudder. Practice some maneuvers and step on the ball (the inclinometer) to keep it centered. Practice this and it will become second nature when you take it to a fight.

 

\/

[Echo38]

A-10C doesn't have a chance against the P-51D in a dogfight, unless there's an enormous discrepancy in fuel loads. If the A-10 has ~20% fuel and the P-51D has 100%, it can be a fairly even dogfight. Same fuel, however, A-10 doesn't have a chance except to not engage to begin with.

[Hadwell]

yea i also mentioned what i do when i am turning and notice my plane is starting to lose lift on a wing.... i do understand that you need to adapt tactics based on the situation, but the end result is always you want to get yourself in a situation where you can do what your plane does best...

 

adapting to your situation is different from what i was saying... i was saying assuming you're already in the advantageous situation... keep your energy up, while trying to get him to lose his...

 

if your not, get his equal or less than yours either by increasing your own energy or getting him to lose his...

 

thats energy fighting...

 

really has nothing to do with what exact manuver you do, as long as your goal is to get more energy than the enemy has... i was just listing a few manuvers that are used in pure energy fighting, doesn't mean their the only ones you use...

 

but when you turn a p51, flat turns are very inefficient, the wings drag,

 

so you lose less energy doing immelmans convert that energy into altitude instead of letting it bleed off on the wings

Edited August 31, 2013 by Hadwell