One Free Aircraft - The Poll

[Wolf Rider]

Nah, a WWI era plane as a trainer would be stepping on toes (and so FSX)...

 

A trainer for DCS: WWII, really wouldn't sit nice... it'd have to be a warbird and varied training missions supplied (just like it is now with DCS: World). You want to give 1. the "demo" user, a good reason to get the product and 2. continue with it. That plane would need to be an Iconic one (the P47 wasn't an Iconic plane) Spitfres/ Messerschmits, Zeroes, Corsairs, B17's, P40's were the Iconic planes of the era

Edited October 1, 2013 by Wolf Rider

[MACADEMIC]

I agree with your points.

If they would have a free game with a trainer, that would most likely make them pay for real combat planes.

But then the question is, how many casuals would even try it out if they already knew that they would only get a WW1 like biplane and not a cool combat plane that can blow stuff up? :)

Or how many would just skip the trainer altogether?

 

When I first tried Il-2, 10 years ago, the first thing I did was take my favorite plane for a spin against enemy fighters. I failed miserably, but that excited me and gave me motivation to learn and master it. I doubt I'd be so excited if I'd be stuck with a Po-2 on a three month learning session.

 

I think what's easily overlooked here is that there's a fundamental difference between an IL-2 type, and a DCS type flying-, and more so combat experience. If the casual doesn't bring with him the interest and attention span required to learn the trade and familarize himself with an aircraft's systems and characteristics, no tutorial in the world will make a great pilot and combat ace out of him. Not saying there wasn't a learning curve in IL-2 or other flight sims, there certainly was.

 

But due to the much higher realism of all things DCS, there's much more to learn and the learning curve is steeper. That's why I think a trainer plane would have worked better, to cultivate the DCS experience for newcomers, and to wet the appetite of the old hands.

 

MAC

[hegykc]

Nah, a WWI era plane as a trainer would be stepping on toes (and so FSX)...

 

A trainer for DCS: WWII, really wouldn't sit nice... it'd have to be a warbird and varied training missions supplied (just like it is now with DCS: World). You want to give 1. the "demo" user, a good reason to get the product and 2. continue with it. That plane would need to be an Iconic one (the P47 wasn't an Iconic plane) Spitfres/ Messerschmits, Zeroes, Corsairs, B17's, P40's were the Iconic planes of the era

 

That would be an easy decision if this were Call of duty, or GTA 5.

An iconic plane given for free is easy worth half a million in sales for the next 3 years. In this niche market that can be the difference between being in business and being bust.

 

Belive me, we would like nothing more than a free spit and a 109. But is that a viable option for the dev team and the continued development of this series?

[Wolf Rider]

well, fortunately its not either of the two you've mentioned and a drawcard does better in the long run... whether you thinks so or not (doesn't necessarily have to be DCS: level though... it can be FC3 level with AFM :-))

Edited October 1, 2013 by Wolf Rider

[MACADEMIC]

That would be an easy decision if this were Call of duty, or GTA 5.

 

An iconic plane given for free is easy worth half a million in sales for the next 3 years. In this niche market that can be the difference between being in business and being bust.

 

For this very reason I wouldn't have given away any of the three, they're all hard to make and each of them is desirable in their own right. But okay, decision is not ours to make and has been made, however not to forget that community effort and discussion has played its part in reversing the original plan to give away three such aircraft, which in my opinion would have made this venture go bust, as you call it.

 

MAC

[Keyser]

" ~ legally safer" ? The KS "contract" is done once the KS pledge period ends... the same as a sale. eg The seller announces a 14 day period in which all goods are on sale at half price - that period ends and the price goes up again. you miss out if you're not there at the time.

 

For RRG to announce the change before the KS ends, may work to pull a in few of those "unsure" or hanging out until later though.

 

Yes, I already adressed this. If the Kickstarter ends without RRG changing the product, they would be bound to not only deliver the rewards they promised, but also the product they promised. If the Kickstarter ends with them promising a product with 3 free planes and then they were to change their minds after the fact, they might be in trouble. Yes, even legally. Even if they otherwise give the backers all their due rewards.

Anyways, they're not going to do it that way, so it's all good. I was just pointing out that the idea to leave the KS as is and change the number of free planes afterwards was a terrible one.

[Wolf Rider]

Yes, I already adressed this. If the Kickstarter ends without RRG changing the product, they would be bound to not only deliver the rewards they promised, but also the product they promised. If the Kickstarter ends with them promising a product with 3 free planes and then they were to change their minds after the fact, they might be in trouble. Yes, even legally. Even if they otherwise give the backers all their due rewards.

Anyways, they're not going to do it that way, so it's all good. I was just pointing out that the idea to leave the KS as is and change the number of free planes afterwards was a terrible one.

 

You say "might"... "might" isn't will and the only obligation is to those who pledged, those who bought into the conditions stated. If they didn't get any get any pledges on some of the levels listed... they aren't obligated to deliver those levels. Stated in the KS is to honour the level pledged but free to change any level which has no pledge... read back in the thread for verification. Once the KS period has ended, reached and paid out, the conditionals of the KS end... clean slate ensues and that for which monies have been received only to be honoured.

SO, if they've promised, to investors, the world for a certain level to develop the product (which is what KS is, a service to garner funding for product development), that promise needs to be be upheld... after which and outside of though, they're free to sell (or not) the developed product to customers as they see fit.

 

What happens in a straight out case of "take the funding and run" or shoddy/ half hearted or genuine failed development... ????????

Edited October 1, 2013 by Wolf Rider

[Keyser]

You say "might"... "might" isn't will and the only obligation is to those who pledged, those who bought into the conditions stated. If they didn't get any get any pledges on some of the levels listed... they aren't obligated to deliver those levels. Stated in the KS is to honour the level pledged but free to change any level which has no pledge... read back in the thread for verification. Once the KS period has ended, reached and paid out, the conditionals of the KS end... clean slate ensues and that for which monies have been received only to be honoured.

SO, if they've promised, to investors, the world for a certain level to develop the product (which is what KS is, a service to garner funding for product development), that promise needs to be be upheld... after which and outside of though, they're free to sell (or not) the developed product to customers as they see fit.

 

I don't know why you would intentionally have them risk legal trouble over something that can be done now completely effortlessly.

As I have explained before, the rewards are not only the modules or the spiral bound manuals. The rewards also include the game itself, i.e. the game as described in the Kickstarter. It's really not complicated. A company does very much have an obligation to deliver the product they advertised in the Kickstarter, even if they otherwise fulfill all remaining rewards. You are right that RRG doesn't owe anything to non-backers, but that does not mean they don't owe the backers what they advertised during the campaign, even if that benefits non-backers.

An individual who backs this project with the expectation of getting a game with 3 free planes initially can reasonably expect to get that, even if he personally gets the modules regardless. His intentions may be to have his friends make use of the free planes - you don't know and neither do I. The point is you are wrong to say that RRG can do whatever they want after the Kickstarter ends as long as the backers get their modules. They also have to deliver the product they advertised.

 

That is why it's a terrible idea to delay the proposed changes until after the Kickstarter ends. Luckily, it doesn't look like they will do that.

[Merlin-27]

One Free Aircraft - The Poll

 

Some good lively discussion on this topic. I honestly thought there was some real value in the trainer idea and worth discussing even if the decision for the free aircraft has been made. It is a stepping stone to allow newcomers to ease their way into DCS. As has already been proven, many current fliers in the community don't require the combat element to get enjoyment from DCS. I think learning the ropes during a guided tutorial in an AT-6 would be pretty cool. Or imagine being able to jump into the storch and help spot some ground targets! There is much potential.

 

My case for offering the Spit first was based mainly on the fact that many did progress from Spit to 47 to 51. Can't be too wrong to follow the progression of the actual WWII pilots. Just my opinion.

[hegykc]

My case for offering the Spit first was based mainly on the fact that many did progress from Spit to 47 to 51. Can't be too wrong to follow the progression of the actual WWII pilots. Just my opinion.

 

That would be a no brainer if the dev team was backed with a couple of millions from investors or backers. Since that is not the case, many features will have to be developed and paid for from revenue that the most popular modules will bring in.

 

That's the only concern. A financial one.

 

A trainer would be a perfect choice if you ask me. Something with some armament if possible. That could keep you busy for months. Coupled with interesting and fun training missions and briefing... I can only imagine.

 

Trainer aircraft got shot down during the war, right? So one could even train online with the added tension of trying to keep a low profile and watching your back.

 

Bring the general from point A to pint B, alive :pilotfly:

 

The very first single player training mission, get up in a T-6 Texan with an instructor. And mid lesson you get bounced by an enemy fighter, the instructor is wounded, and you have to bring the plane down with his instructions that suddenly stop a mile from touchdown...

I know, arcadish and scripted, but it would provide the WoT crowd with a wow factor.

Edited October 1, 2013 by hegykc

[MA_Goblin]

I would happily pay $80 bucks for this one. The Westland Whirlwind, a 4x20 mm cannon equipped fast "failure"

but imagine the fun wreaking havoc with the anything on the ground or in the air (bombers/transports) :)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2013 by hakjar

[Merlin-27]

...I know, arcadish and scripted, but it would provide the WoT crowd with a wow factor.

 

Now we are on the same page. THAT excitement is worth millions. IMO we NEED to think big. How do we build a strong base of pilots that don't get frustrated and quit when they are thrown into an unforgiving fighting machine. Some can handle this, and we are still flying, but lets make sure we allow every level of interest and skill have their fair shot at catching the bug.

 

Can't hurt to throw ideas around and see what sticks.

[Bucic]

My case for offering the Spit first was based mainly on the fact that many did progress from Spit to 47 to 51. Can't be too wrong to follow the progression of the actual WWII pilots. Just my opinion.

I am not a specialist on ww2 history but I don't think it was the case in general. It makes no sense.

[Sharpe]

I am not a specialist on ww2 history but I don't think it was the case in general. It makes no sense.

 

better read up on the Eagle Squadrons and the 4th fighter group then. Although the unit is basically one and the same. They went from flying Spitfires to the P47 to the P51.

[Merlin-27]

better read up on the Eagle Squadrons and the 4th fighter group then. Although the unit is basically one and the same. They went from flying Spitfires to the P47 to the P51.

 

:) Thank you.

 

And to clarify, it is not the only possible progression. However, we'd be following in some pretty great footsteps. By the way, I just finished reading "1000 destroyed." If you can find a copy, check it out.

[Sharpe]

:) Thank you.

 

And to clarify, it is not the only possible progression. However, we'd be following in some pretty great footsteps. By the way, I just finished reading "1000 destroyed." If you can find a copy, check it out.

 

correct. There were Mustang groups that handed in their planes and switched to the P47.

[LosT_SouL_VL]

I Have everything from DCS to date (I even have the hard copy of flaming cliffs and changed my BS2 upgrade to a BS2 full version)

 

But for this...Really??? I permanently pass on this one...The moral of this story is to not bump my head again against the same stones.."there are trust issues..."

 

Some people (like myself) won't back this because of the CLOD disaster... Some can be in denial; others can USSR style censor (or ask to censor) things because they and others are not comfortable with this "heretic" opinion; but that won't change this fact and life is not always peachy and sometimes opinions are harsh but countries where people live that have to have mandatory opinions are not the best places to live...

Frankly I know a lot of people that won't back Luthier and/or Oleg because of the "CLOD reason"...I think both of them and others underestimated the resentment that more than a few people have towards CLOD and everyone who is "tainted" by CLOD...

[ami7b5]

If you already have P-51, it would cost you just $20 to get 3 RRG planes + 1 DCS:FW-190D, which makes $5 per plane...

 

Edit: and beta access :)

Edited October 1, 2013 by ami7b5

[Flying Penguin]

I Have everything from DCS to date (I even have the hard copy of flaming cliffs and changed my BS2 upgrade to a BS2 full version)

 

But for this...Really??? I permanently pass on this one...The moral of this story is to not bump my head again against the same stones.."there are trust issues..."

 

Some people (like myself) won't back this because of the CLOD disaster... Some can be in denial; others can USSR style censor (or ask to censor) things because they and others are not comfortable with this "heretic" opinion; but that won't change this fact and life is not always peachy and sometimes opinions are harsh but countries where people live that have to have mandatory opinions are not the best places to live...

Frankly I know a lot of people that won't back Luthier and/or Oleg because of the "CLOD reason"...I think both of them and others underestimated the resentment that more than a few people have towards CLOD and everyone who is "tainted" by CLOD...

 

But, if it works, you'll still get it. In a small niche like this, you don't get many options, if this works (which, given we already have an engine and we have ED backing it by tying their brand to this, I'm comfortable is a safe bet), I'd put money on an awful lot of those "after Clod, never again" types downloading it and developing selective amnesia.

 

$1 will get you access to 3 flyables, that's less than the cost of a cup of coffee. Seriously, it's not that much of a risk, it just doesn't make financial sense not to....

 

Quite frankly if you can't gamble $1, I don't know how you can afford the electricity to run your sim pc, never mind afford to start simming in the first place!

Edited October 1, 2013 by Flying Penguin

[Keyser]

I Have everything from DCS to date (I even have the hard copy of flaming cliffs and changed my BS2 upgrade to a BS2 full version)

 

But for this...Really??? I permanently pass on this one...The moral of this story is to not bump my head again against the same stones.."there are trust issues..."

 

Some people (like myself) won't back this because of the CLOD disaster... Some can be in denial; others can USSR style censor (or ask to censor) things because they and others are not comfortable with this "heretic" opinion; but that won't change this fact and life is not always peachy and sometimes opinions are harsh but countries where people live that have to have mandatory opinions are not the best places to live...

Frankly I know a lot of people that won't back Luthier and/or Oleg because of the "CLOD reason"...I think both of them and others underestimated the resentment that more than a few people have towards CLOD and everyone who is "tainted" by CLOD...

 

Just wait it out and then decide based on the merits of the product. But if you will "permanently pass" on it and deny yourself a fun experience just on principle, then I guess that's your decision to make...

[LosT_SouL_VL]

But, if it works, you'll still get it. In a small niche like this, you don't get many options, if this works, I'd put money on an awful lot of those "after Clod, never again" types downloading it and getting amnesia.

 

$1 will get you access to 3 flyables, that's less than the cost of a cup of coffee. Seriously, it's not that much of a risk, it just doesn't make financial sense not to....

 

Quite frankly if you can't gamble $1, I don't know how you can afford the electricity to run your sim pc, never mind afford to start simming in the first place!

 

There are others things than money in the world, things like loyalty,trust and honesty; departments that those who are responsable for the CLOD debacle are clearly lacking in. Frankly I wouldn't even install this product if it was for free...After the CLOD disaster " the I have to support a niche market because it's a niche market " doesn't count anymore...

And please do not make assumptions about my financial situation and then I won't make the assumption that you're a apologist... And i've been simming since the glorydays of Microprose, Dynamix, Digital Integration and Spectrum Holobyte...

 

EDIT: How could I forget..." And Janes Combat Simulations "

Edited October 1, 2013 by LosT_SouL_VL

[hegykc]

I Have everything from DCS to date (I even have the hard copy of flaming cliffs and changed my BS2 upgrade to a BS2 full version)

 

But for this...Really??? I permanently pass on this one...The moral of this story is to not bump my head again against the same stones.."there are trust issues..."

 

Some people (like myself) won't back this because of the CLOD disaster... Some can be in denial; others can USSR style censor (or ask to censor) things because they and others are not comfortable with this "heretic" opinion; but that won't change this fact and life is not always peachy and sometimes opinions are harsh but countries where people live that have to have mandatory opinions are not the best places to live...

Frankly I know a lot of people that won't back Luthier and/or Oleg because of the "CLOD reason"...I think both of them and others underestimated the resentment that more than a few people have towards CLOD and everyone who is "tainted" by CLOD...

 

It's a goddamn dollar for 3 DCS planes. How much of a tragedy did these guys cause in your life to punish them this severely?

 

EDIT: Oh you're not getting it even if it turns out to be a classic, and even if it were for free? Well, that ends the debate right there. Fanboyism has a twin brother on the oposite side of the extreme, neither is worth wasting time on.

Edited October 1, 2013 by hegykc

[LosT_SouL_VL]

It's a goddamn dollar for 3 DCS planes. How much of a tragedy did these guys cause in your life to punish them this severely?

 

EDIT: Oh you're not getting it even if it turns out to be a classic, and even if it were for free? Well, that ends the debate right there. Fanboyism has a twin brother on the oposite side of the extreme, neither is worth wasting time on.

 

The fact of the matter is that they punished themselves...And here there's clearly one of the twin brothers that wants to dominate the other one...

[cichlidfan]

Chill out guys. It is only a game.

[hegykc]

The fact of the matter is that they punished themselves...And here there's clearly one of the twin brothers that wants to dominate the other one...

 

I pledged a dollar, and will use the rest of my money to buy BoS. I resent the CoD debacle, and I'm speaking loudly about the things that are wrong here. Like the 3 free aircraft, the mess of a kickstarter and many other things. So they get plenty of punishment from me.

 

Where I draw the line is, wishing ruin to the whole WWII study sim genre and hurting the whole community. Cause I don't see anybody else stepping up to the task of making a study WWII sim...

Edited October 1, 2013 by hegykc