"Realism vs. Balance" - which MiG-29 for future project?

[SUBS17]

Mig29K would rock:icon_supe

[Starlight]

SMT is in service in a few number of countries. In Yemen for example.

 

Mine was just a witty comment to say that some of LOMAC flyables (current and future) are not exactly well-spreaded aircraft. ;)

Extremely interesting aircraft from technical point of view, marvels of Russian tech, but not really well-suited with the exception of extremely fictional scenarios.

The Su-33 is in service in really small numbers (maybe a dozen airframes?). The Su-25t has been built in a few units, I don't think it really entered service. The Ka-50/52 is operational, but again in really few units, and it was combat-tested while still in the prototype phase.

The Mig-29 SMT I think is in service only in Yemen (about 14 units), and with the Russian Air Force (original plans called for 150 airframes, but I don't know how many have been actually built).

 

Anyway, my point is, in a middle-east scenario, Yemen is likely to have 14 mig-29smt units. BUT, Syria, Iraq (former regime) and Iran have standard 9.12. And 9.12 can be used for other scenarios (korea, former yugoslavia, former warsaw pact, cuba....).

That was just my point.

cheers,

Mat

[NAEMNIK]

If all will go successfully, the Russian air forces will receive 30-50 planes Mig-29SMT

So the presence them in game will be in lawful if to adhere to the concept of realness.

[GGTharos]

Naemnik, will it ibe SMT, or SMT2 or even newer?

[NAEMNIK]

Naemnik, will it ibe SMT, or SMT2 or even newer?

I do not know with which SMT, but now from words of the worker "PCK Mig" is now solved the problem on delivery in AF RF of a party(set) of planes SMT

[Dudikoff]

I voted for the 9.12, as I would like to have a more clearly defined timeframe that is set somewhere in the 80s. So if it got to be a MiG-29, I would rather like to see it in a early scenario ( Syria got their MiG-29 in 1987 ). The saved development time compared to the much more complex SMT could be put into the simulation of a realistic GCI model, complete with complex ground contoller AI, real life procedures and extensive radio comms. GCI is such a elementar to the operation of the MiG-29, you could consider it as part of it's avionics suite. And since we all strive for the maximum realism of avionics, I think maximum realism in the GCI simulation is equaly impoartant.

 

And even if it isn't part of the poll, I would rather see the F-16A modeled as the Falcon represantiv, wich stands for a IMO much more interesting era of air combat than the latest high-tech versions. The F-16A did fly air superiority missions armed with Sidewinders and the gun only, engaging the enemy in thrilling close air combat. And in the ground attack mission you have to work hard in the F-16A and face the enemys defenses to put your bombs on target.

 

I totally agree. Why can't we have some real Cold War scenario and not this high-tech weapons in an undefined period between uninspiring sides. F-16C Block 40+ is boring :)

 

F-16A/F-15A vs. vanilla Mig-29 (maybe some other Migs, like 23,21) would be great. Obvios choice of conflict is between Israel and some surrounding Arab countries.

[Dronas]

No mach Mig-29!

L-39!

[Yellonet]

If the SMT is used in the area of operations I choose that one... if not the other one.

[SwingKid]

F-16A/F-15A vs. vanilla Mig-29 (maybe some other Migs, like 23,21) would be great. Obvios choice of conflict is between Israel and some surrounding Arab countries.

 

What year would that be?

 

F-16C arrived in Israel simultaneous with MiG-29 9.12B in Syria, 1987-88.

F-15C was in Israel already 1980.

 

If you want realism AND balance, I don't think you can pick a much worse choice in human history than Israel(/USA) vs. Arabs.

 

Go Cyprus! :)

 

-SK

[SwingKid]

I do not know with which SMT, but now from words of the worker "PCK Mig" is now solved the problem on delivery in AF RF of a party(set) of planes SMT

 

Excellent, now we only need for Russia to be relocated to Middle East

 

-SK

[Olgerd]

Excellent, now we only need for Russia to be relocated to Middle East

 

-SK

 

Who could even suppose about the United States military presence in Afganistan before 9/11? Same for EPAF F-16AM in Kirsizstan. Same for F-4F and F-16CJ CCIP II over Estonia.

[MBot]

Go Cyprus! :)

 

Hmmm, F-16C vs. Mirage 2000. Now THAT would be a nice setup ;)

[SwingKid]

Who could even suppose about the United States military presence in Afganistan before 9/11? Same for EPAF F-16AM in Kirsizstan. Same for F-4F and F-16CJ CCIP II over Estonia.

 

It's a not-bad argument for SMT, but I think my own poll result is more convincing. :( :icon_roll ;)

 

-SK

[firesoldier845]

I know it's OT, and is not even in the plan - but a Vietnam era sim done by ED would rock - Mig-17, Mig-21, F-4, F-8,F-105 - I know it won't happen, but we've never had a Vietnam era flight sim anywhere near the complexity of LockOn or Falcon 4. That would be cool and most if not all of the info is declassified. I know it's NOT going to happen.

 

I realize the decision has been made a long time ago what's next but Vietnam would be a great theatre. Wish someone would pick up the ball and do this right for once. WOV is a nice sim, but nothing like what ED puts out.

 

cheers

[192nd_Erdem]

What year would that be?

 

F-16C arrived in Israel simultaneous with MiG-29 9.12B in Syria, 1987-88.

F-15C was in Israel already 1980.

 

If you want realism AND balance, I don't think you can pick a much worse choice in human history than Israel(/USA) vs. Arabs.

 

Go Cyprus! :)

 

-SK

 

It would be good for realism and balance . . .

 

. . . but believe me you don't want both many Turks and Greeks playing the same game, in the same place :redface: We don't have a problem with them, but they tend to produce problems :)

 

If you can keep the game and forums in the control, I vote for Cyprus :)

[MBot]

I know it's OT, and is not even in the plan - but a Vietnam era sim done by ED would rock - Mig-17, Mig-21, F-4, F-8,F-105 - I know it won't happen, but we've never had a Vietnam era flight sim anywhere near the complexity of LockOn or Falcon 4. That would be cool and most if not all of the info is declassified. I know it's NOT going to happen.

 

I realize the decision has been made a long time ago what's next but Vietnam would be a great theatre. Wish someone would pick up the ball and do this right for once. WOV is a nice sim, but nothing like what ED puts out.

 

cheers

 

I know it's a unpopular view in these circles, but I totaly agree with you. The Vietnam war featured some of the most exciting air-air combat ever, it it would certainly deserve a sim that does it in high detail.

[Dudikoff]

What year would that be?

F-16C arrived in Israel simultaneous with MiG-29 9.12B in Syria, 1987-88.

F-15C was in Israel already 1980.

 

Ok, I was writing it quickly. F-15C/F-16C are ok then because there was no AMRAAM back then. F-16C doesn't carry Sparrow (only ADF if I'm correct?) so it would make things even more interesting. So, 1988 it is then :)

 

 

If you want realism AND balance, I don't think you can pick a much worse choice in human history than Israel(/USA) vs. Arabs.

 

Yes, as far as the history goes. But there were no wars involving Mig-29 around which this sim revolves in a way so a fictional conflict in late 80s is an option. Since it's fictitious, you can always add some things to balance it some more. Coming up with convincing storylines is never a problem, we just need new theatres.

 

Go Cyprus! :)

 

Do you mean only Cyprus island or a bit wider theatre which might include coastal parts of Israel, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Kuznetsov.. :) If it's the latter, I'm all for it.

[Pilotasso]

Ok, I was writing it quickly. F-15C/F-16C are ok then because there was no AMRAAM back then. F-16C doesn't carry Sparrow (only ADF if I'm correct?) so it would make things even more interesting. So, 1988 it is then :)

 

My countries AF F-16's block 15 ADF's can carry both the AMRAAM and Sparrows. Wich brings me to another matter. We also have underwing pylons for ALQ-131 pods normaly they are only carried in the ceterline station. These examples are a dying breed since we are replacing them with the MLU.

 

I also would like to see cyprus in the map since its realy close to Israel and would be fun to fly mixes of F-16's and migs VS other F-16's.

[SwingKid]

Do you mean only Cyprus island or a bit wider theatre which might include coastal parts of Israel, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Kuznetsov.. :) If it's the latter, I'm all for it.

 

To start with just the island and F-16C + LANTIRN,

then expand to south Turkish coast and Crete, adding flyable Mirage 2000 and HTS for the F-16,

then expand to northwestern Syria, adding flyable A-10A, "vanilla" MiG-29, Su-27 and Su-33 (similar avionics),

then expand to Lebanon and southwestern Syria, adding MiG-29SMT, MiG-29K and Su-27KUB (similar avionics),

then expand to northern Israel and add F-15C,

then expand to southern Israel and add AH-64D and Mi-28N,

then expand to northern Egypt and add F/A-18C and E naval ops,

then expand to Libya and add MiG-25 and F-14,

then add MiG-31 and F-22A while preparing an all-new theater for the "next project"

 

basically to make the most money and play value possible for the minimum amount of work each step, with each stage contributing something to the next.

and to ENSURE at each stage, avionics and terrain are maximum detail and accuracy, without anymore excuses about economics/we didn't have time/the "focus" aircraft is the other aircraft...

 

I didn't think anybody would take it seriously though, starting with only one flyable, what a surprise - thanks for interest! :)

 

-SK

[Kula66]

I didn't think anybody would take it seriously though, starting with only one flyable, what a surprise - thanks for interest! :)

-SK

 

What do you mean! Falcon had a single flyable for years and look what happened!

[Dudikoff]

basically to make the most money and play value possible for the minimum amount of work each step, with each stage contributing something to the next.

 

Ok, I thought maybe it's a LITTLE far-fetched, but when I saw Mig-31 and F-14 in the list, I wholeheartidly support it. I hope the rest of needed 100 000 people needed to make it possible also find something they like in the list ;)

 

and to ENSURE at each stage, avionics and terrain are maximum detail and accuracy, without anymore excuses about economics/we didn't have time/the "focus" aircraft is the other aircraft...

 

Judging by the LOMAC development, by the time I get my 31, I'll be in my pension so I'll have all the time in the world for flying it. But they might need to revamp the graphics a bit by then.

 

I didn't think anybody would take it seriously though, starting with only one flyable, what a surprise - thanks for interest! :)

 

Hey, if nothing else, until recently, I used to play LockOn on WinME :) [ducks for cover].

[SwingKid]

Ok, I thought maybe it's a LITTLE far-fetched, but when I saw Mig-31 and F-14 in the list, I wholeheartidly support it. I hope the rest of needed 100 000 people needed to make it possible also find something they like in the list ;)

 

I forgot the British Harrier for the Sovereign Base Areas, but really I only worry about the first step, which I'd like to be small and as F-16-centric as possible. Where anybody wants to take the expansion from there, I don't think there's any way it can really go wrong.

 

There are other ways to do it, but I'd be disappointed to see the future sim's Middle East map resemble today's Caucasus map, or other compromises made because too many flyables were attempted at once. Cyprus just seems the easiest, smallest, soonest and most F-16-centric. Less is more.

 

It's just an opinion, thanks for interest.

 

-SK

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

I dont' know the difference ahah.. never know anything about combat. I'll learn something one of these days, where to start?

[Dudikoff]

There are other ways to do it, but I'd be disappointed to see the future sim's Middle East map resemble today's Caucasus map, or other compromises made because too many flyables were attempted at once. Cyprus just seems the easiest, smallest, soonest and most F-16-centric. Less is more.

 

So it's been decided that the next sim would revolve around Middle East? Cyprus is ok if the map would be the size of the current map so we have Israel, Turkey, Syria, Egypt as I already said. Cyprus alone is pretty small (100+ kms in length?).

 

I wonder if they could make even bigger maps. I always liked the GIUK Cold War scenarios. Northern UK and SW Norway occupied by Soviet forces perhaps, maybe even Iceland (but that's not necessary). F-15s stationed in UK, maybe A-10s withdrawn from European mainland, new F-16s; Mig-29s and Su-27/33s for the Russian side. It would also scream for F/A-18A/C and matching US carrier ops. Maybe even a fictitious early Eurofighter introduction. I'm already drooling.. :)

[SwingKid]

So it's been decided that the next sim would revolve around Middle East?

 

I don't know how "decided", but it was mentioned in the Russian forum that this was a favored possibility.

 

Cyprus is ok if the map would be the size of the current map so we have Israel, Turkey, Syria, Egypt as I already said. Cyprus alone is pretty small (100+ kms in length?).

 

You mean that entire map, from initial release?

 

Hmm, maybe you weren't here earlier for the discussion:

 

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=6290

 

It was pointed out that map development is by far the slowest process at ED, so the less terrain at a time, the better, IMHO. Break it up into small, manageable chunks, of which Cyprus is IMHO the best small chunk to start with. Otherwise both the terrain remains unfinished, and the sim is delayed and released with fewer missions.

 

I wonder if they could make even bigger maps. I always liked the GIUK Cold War scenarios. Northern UK and SW Norway occupied by Soviet forces perhaps, maybe even Iceland (but that's not necessary). F-15s stationed in UK, maybe A-10s withdrawn from European mainland, new F-16s; Mig-29s and Su-27/33s for the Russian side. It would also scream for F/A-18A/C and matching US carrier ops. Maybe even a fictitious early Eurofighter introduction. I'm already drooling.. :)

 

If they could, why didn't they? Do you think the current Lock On map is well-arranged? We need to find something smaller than that, then we know it can be done.

 

-SK