DCS: P-47D-30 Discussion

[MiloMorai]

I think people underestimate the P-47s dog-fighting capabilities, of course she never went up against the 109k or 190d as far as I know. For this line up I'd say the P47n is a better match but I'm happy being in the d model.

 

On Jan 1 1945, a K-4 (WNr331510) from Stab II./JG11 was probably shot down by a P-47 from the USAAF 9th AF.

 

Also a D-9 (WNr500390) from 4./JG2 was shot down most likely by a P-47.

[Legioneod]

On Jan 1 1945, a K-4 (WNr331510) from Stab II./JG11 was probably shot down by a P-47 from the USAAF 9th AF.

 

Also a D-9 (WNr500390) from 4./JG2 was shot down most likely by a P-47.

 

Interesting, I've read and seen videos of P-47s shooting down Me-262s but never a K4 or Dora.

[Reflected]

Altitude(ft.).Speed(mph)/Climb(fpm)

S.L.......345/3,180

10,000.383/2,920

20,000.417/2,470

32,000.435/1,100

 

I think this is the proper specs for the D-30, either way it will be hard beat it at altitude.

 

I dont know the speeds of the Dora or 109K so if someone could post those for a better comparison that would be great.

 

The K will outrun it at all altitudes :( It will basically be eaten alive...

[Legioneod]

The K will outrun it at all altitudes :( It will basically be eaten alive...

 

Roll and dive, problem solved imo. Besides, I doubt I'll see any germans at that altitude. The P-47s strength is in its roll and dive speeds, so I'll be useing every advantage I have when flying the Tbolt. I think if they do an accurate dmg model that reflects the Tbolts durability and if pilots use her strengths i think the german pilots will have a difficult time in taking her down, but we will see.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Legion

[BlackLion213]

The K will outrun it at all altitudes :( It will basically be eaten alive...

 

In a drag race? ;)

 

The P-47D was very maneuverable at high altitudes compared to other Allied fighters, I'm unsure of how it compared to German fighters above 25,000'.

 

Chuck Yeager described the Dora as the best fighter he'd ever flown below 22,000', but above 25,000' the P-47D may have an advantage.

 

Plus, I bet it could still out-dive it's German counterparts. The P-47D could reach really high speeds in a dive.

 

-Nick

[MiloMorai]

Design analysis of the P-47

http://rwebs.net/avhistory/history/p-47.htm

[DSR_T-800]

Altitude(ft.).Speed(mph)/Climb(fpm)

S.L.......345/3,180

10,000.383/2,920

20,000.417/2,470

32,000.435/1,100

 

I think this is the proper specs for the D-30, either way it will be hard beat it at altitude.

 

I dont know the speeds of the Dora or 109K so if someone could post those for a better comparison that would be great.

 

P-47D-30 vs Current DCS fighters

 

http://m.imgur.com/Qo0se47

[Legioneod]

P-47D-30 vs Current DCS fighters

 

http://m.imgur.com/Qo0se47

Thanks for this. Definitely helps when comparing speed vs altitude of each aircraft.

If I'm reading that graph correctly it looks like the 47 is faster than most higher up, corrct me if I'm wrong as I'm not very good at reading graphs.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Legion

[DSR_T-800]

Thanks for this. Definitely helps when comparing speed vs altitude of each aircraft.

If I'm reading that graph correctly it looks like the 47 is faster than most higher up, corrct me if I'm wrong as I'm not very good at reading graphs.

 

Yes the P-47 is the faster fighter above 8000m.

 

The spotted black line is an early P-47D razor back @ 2300hp. The brown and black lines are later P-47Ds producing ~2600hp.

[WinterH]

If I'm reading that graph correctly it looks like the 47 is faster than most higher up, corrct me if I'm wrong as I'm not very good at reading graphs.

 

Yeah basically according to linked chart, up to 8000 meter, only Spitfire is slower than the Jug, but from then on, it is much faster than anything else. The kurfüst is much faster until there, and is about equal until 8100-ish, but from then on P-47 looks much faster, again according to linked chart.

 

However, until that very high altitude, everything else apart from Spitfire is, much faster from what it looks like.

 

One thing to mention, however slower it may be on a straight line, P-47 dives like hell and will outdive everything. Also, while it's climb rate is much inferiour normally, after such a dive, a zoom climb with high initial speed will probably mean it won't be easy, or even possible to catch it in that climb even in a much superiour climbing plane. Funnily, since heavy things tend to cling onto kinetic energy better, big weight that normaly hamper it's climb performance actually aids it in a zoom climb :).

 

It seems it outclimbed even Spitfires in mock combat with this method, much to Spitfire pilots chagrin. So while it is probably not the agility oriented fighter compared to most other warbirds we have or we'll get, with a strict boom & zoom adherence, in the right hands it may become (annoyingly for opposition) unstoppable. But trying to linger around a missed opponent for long, at low altitudes or co energy states, trying to get into a maneuvering duel, will probably not often end up well for it, at least at altitudes wher most DCS combat tend to happen.

 

To be honest, if I get the Thunderbolt, it will be for ground attack, and I will probably suck with it if I try to use it as a fighter. But that's just me, passing it off as a ground attack plane and saying it has no options as a fighter in hands of a good pilot is unfair in my opinion. But if virtual P-47 pilot hangs around at 2000 meters and meets a Luftwaffe bird there, yeah even if P-47 end up having magic armor, it will likely be a bad place to be for them.

[Legioneod]

Yes the P-47 is the faster fighter above 8000m.

 

The spotted black line is an early P-47D razor back @ 2300hp. The brown and black lines are later P-47Ds producing ~2600hp.

 

Ok cool. I can't wait to fly this thing even if it's outclassed, I'm gonna enjoy bouncing unsuspecting pilots, and diving away when I'm at a disadvantage.

 

Also even though the k4 is faster at most altitudes, how maneuverable is it high up? I've read that the 47 could maneuver very well up high.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Legion

[jorelomlgprof16portugal]

I want it so bad

Edited April 15, 2016 by jorelomlgprof16portugal

[Legioneod]

I want it so bad

 

Looks like a P47m, very good aircraft and it would be a closer match to the current lineup, the P47n would be even better.

[Barrett_g]

The P-47M was the hot rod of the P-47 class. It had the highest horsepower engine stuffed into a standard P-47D airframe.

 

The P-47N was basically a P-47M, with 2 feet of extra wing added to it for additional fuel tank room. This increased the range so it could island hop in the pacific. The extra length of wing slowed the P-47N's roll rate considerably, so they "clipped" the wing tips to regain some of the lost roll rate.

 

The P-47N was a great airframe, it filled its role and it did well in the Pacific (I hope DCS releases one someday).... But performance-wise the M could out roll and out climb the N.

[DSR_T-800]

The P-47M was the hot rod of the P-47 class. It had the highest horsepower engine stuffed into a standard P-47D airframe.

 

The P-47N was basically a P-47M, with 2 feet of extra wing added to it for additional fuel tank room. This increased the range so it could island hop in the pacific. The extra length of wing slowed the P-47N's roll rate considerably, so they "clipped" the wing tips to regain some of the lost roll rate.

 

The P-47N was a great airframe, it filled its role and it did well in the Pacific (I hope DCS releases one someday).... But performance-wise the M could out roll and out climb the N.

 

The P-47N actually rolled faster than the D and M, it was the extra weight of fuel in the wings that degraded its roll rate. I can't find my source on the P-47N's roll rate, but it was said to be faster than the P-47D-30's. The P-47D-30's roll rate was around 85 degrees/second vs IIRC P-47N's 100+ degrees/second. The gap between the N's roll rate and D's roll rate increased as speed increased. Also The P-47N with equivalent fuel as the M also had a lower wing loading. The only advantage for the for M would be top speed and a slightly faster rate of climb.

 

Empty weight

 

P-47N 10,998 lbs

P-47M 10,422 lbs

 

If you apply the same Useful load of the P-47M on the N, since the N carries a ridiculous amount of fuel...

 

Gross weight

 

P-47N 13,850 lbs(M's Useful load)

P-47M 13,275 lbs

 

Wing loading

 

P-47N 42.92 lb/sq ft

P-47M 44.25 lb/sq ft

[Barrett_g]

You have to remember that the P-47M was designed as a sprinter to catch Nazi buzz bombs and the emerging threat of new jet fighters. The P-47N was designed to escort the B-29 to mainland Japan.

 

Unfortunately, most websites give a glossed-over account of P-47 development and don't fully explain everything.

 

When it comes to the P-47N most websites say that it's got the most powerful radial engine, bigger fuel tanks, and clipped wings to improve roll rate. It's easy for someone to read those statements and believe the P-47N could fly faster, longer, and was more maneuverable than any previous P-47.

 

Unfortunately, to confuse the matter even more, most websites will just copy and paste off another website... So after finding 10-15 accounts of the same thing... These falsities are further concreted as truth.

 

You have to remember that when building the N model, they didn't just add fuel tanks to the D model. It needed a whole new wing.

 

They added 2 feet at the base of the wing to add room for fuel tanks. Fuel tanks and lines are heavier (even when empty) and require structural bracing for the added weight. The bracing also adds weight.

 

The added two feet at the wings base moved the landing gear further apart. This made for even better ground handling due to a wide (more stable) stance.... However, this also called for wing reinforcements, which added weight.

 

With a longer wingspan and added weight that was spread along the wing, they found the P-47N had a reduced roll rate, so they clipped the wings and enlarged to ailerons to improve the lost roll-rate.

 

While the P-47N had the best engine offering (same engine used in the P-47M) it had to lug around a lot of added weight.

 

 

Here's a good reference on P-47N specs:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47n-88406.html

 

What I like about this reference: Its the USAAF. They've received the P-47N after hearing all of Republic's "hype" and are testing it against Republic's technical orders to see if the real world data matches. You'll see notes in this reference where the USAAF says some figures need to be adjusted.

 

Here's the Summary:

 

The P-47 N airplane has performance and handling characteristics very similar to the early P-47 airplanes, but due to heavier weights caused by greater fuel capacity, performance is lower when using equal power settings. The rate of roll is slower, due to the weight being farther from the longitudinal axis of the airplane.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Barrett_g

[DSR_T-800]

I'm saying if you compare the P-47N to the M and N at comparable fuel loading hence why I applied the useful load of the P-47M with the P-47N, you'll get plane with a lower wing loading and faster rate of roll. The P-47N is really only 576 lbs heavier than the M, when comparing empty weights. Obviously a fully loaded 16,000 lb+ plane isn't going to be very maneuverable compared to a 13,000 lbs+ plane. :P. My weights are with 6 .50 cals, regardless as their performance would degrade proportionally.

[Barrett_g]

I'm saying if you compare the P-47N to the M and N at comparable fuel loading hence why I applied the useful load of the P-47M with the P-47N, you'll get plane with a lower wing loading and faster rate of roll. The P-47N is really only 576 lbs heavier than the M, when comparing empty weights. Obviously a fully loaded 16,000 lb+ plane isn't going to be very maneuverable compared to a 13,000 lbs+ plane. :P. My weights are with 6 .50 cals, regardless as their performance would degrade proportionally.

 

I think what your forgetting is that the N is 576lbs heavier (conservatively... I think it weighs more). In addition to the added 576lbs (or more) you have to factor in the weight of the landing gear, hydraulics, machine guns, ammo, aileron linkages, and ailerons all being shifted further away from the fuselage.

 

That's a LOT of weight being pushed out towards the wing tips that would have a negative impact on roll rate.

 

Kind of like how an Olympic figure skater tucks her arms in to spin faster and holds her arms out to spin slower.

 

Yes the P-47N has a slightly improved wing loading, bigger aileron area, and squared off (clipped) wing tips to improve roll rate... But it doesn't improve roll rate BEYOND the late model D's and M's... It simply is trying to regain the performance lost when the tanks were added out of necessity for its long range escort mission criteria.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Barrett_g

[DSR_T-800]

Zunzun sent me a PM, for some reason he couldn't post on the forums so i'm going to be his voice for now. :P

 

"Hi!

 

But regarding rate of roll of "N", in my copy of "Thunderbolt from serversky to victory" of W. Body states on pg 403 that the p-47N-1-RE has better roll capabilities than the p-47 D-28 model and that could turn with it.

On page 333 says the x-p47N (the prototype) had a rate of roll of 98deg/sec at 300mph. The test was done at a gross weight of 16300 pounds with the xp-47N having a rate of 100 deg-sec at 250mph (15 deg faster than the -2 and at 300mph IAS was 21 deg/sec better.

Do not know how different was this prototype to the final production model but as I point above it does says that the N-1 rolled better than the -28

 

Hope that help."

[Barrett_g]

Hmmm... Looks like I found another P-47 book to add to my collection! :thumbup:

[Friedrich-4B]

Hmmm... Looks like I found another P-47 book to add to my collection! :thumbup:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Republics-P-47-Thunderbolt-Seversky-Victory/dp/0962935913

 

The main proviso I have is that while the book is really comprehensive, and a great source of P-47 info, danged if it isn't one of the worst edited, most irritating to read books in my collection.

[Barrett_g]

http://www.amazon.com/Republics-P-47-Thunderbolt-Seversky-Victory/dp/0962935913

 

The main proviso I have is that while the book is really comprehensive, and a great source of P-47 info, danged if it isn't one of the worst edited, most irritating to read books in my collection.

 

lol! Yeah I read some of the reviews on it and everyone tends to agree with you there!

[DSR_T-800]

F-47D-30

 

ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930083857.pdf

 

http://www.warfare.altervista.org/PlanesAndPilotsOfWW2/Fisher.html

Edited April 26, 2016 by DSR_T-800

[Alladyn]

My piggy bank is full, and I can't wait for preorder ^_^

Beside of that, the p47 will arrive after spitfire?

I don't know is it right, but in my dream the WWII Normandy map came out with Thunderbolt. Is it?

[Racoon]

My piggy bank is full, and I can't wait for preorder ^_^

Beside of that, the p47 will arrive after spitfire?

I don't know is it right, but in my dream the WWII Normandy map came out with Thunderbolt. Is it?

 

Every module will be released in the moment when we deside it's ready for release.

Spitfire is the most finished from all mentioned modules now.