Finally I fight without blowing my engine

[Merlin-27]

...When you get to that level of dogfighting skill, WEP is more than noticeable; it's a ~10% difference, more than twice the amount of that an expert can perceive. In a chaotic dogfight with many people, in which luck plays a large factor, it might not matter so terribly, but in an even duel, WEP-use is a large element.

 

THIS post made me realize why we were not seeing eye-to-eye on the topic. My initial response was not directed towards the top tier virtual pilot. That group should not need too many pointers about WEP within a thread named "Finally I fight without blowing my engine." My concern was with the suggestion to P-51D newcomers that WEP is needed for each A2A encounter. Along with that I spoke on the view that WEP is a little more forgiving within DCS than I had expected, which consequently allows it to be used like a "turbo" button.

[Echo38]

My initial response was not directed towards the top tier virtual pilot. That group should not need too many pointers about WEP within a thread named "Finally I fight without blowing my engine." My concern was with the suggestion to P-51D newcomers that WEP is needed for each A2A encounter.

 

Well, there's all sorts of skillsets here. When I got DCS: P-51D, I was already proficient at stick & rudder work and gunnery, but completely new to realistic engine management (which was missing in the older sim-games I'd used before DCS). It took me more than a few hours in this sim to get the hang of not overheating my engine to the point of destruction; in addition to learning the normal engine management, I also had to adjust my maneuvers quite a bit, as in IL-2 & AH2 I relied greatly on low-speed spiral climbs, full-flaps slow scissors, "hammerhead flops," and other floaty stall-speed maneuvers (all of which destroy the engine in about thirty seconds at WEP in DCS). Or--case in point--WEP: it took me a while of testing in duels to come to the conclusion that advancing to WEP immediately after the merge (as soon as you've dropped below corner turning speed) is better than trying to save it until he's half-way on your six. So, even some of the virtual pilots at the higher end of the skill pool need advice regarding engine management (among other things). I'm still only moderately comfortable with it myself--much to learn I have, hmm!

 

Even with the new guys, I'm not so sure that we should be recommending that they further handicap themselves by staying below 90% power. I guess, at the beginning, while trying to figure out engine heat, it might not be a bad idea, as long as they understand that--ultimately--using WEP is essential for winning a dogfight unless you have some other advantage (such as energy advantage, surprise, or more flying experience than your opponent).

 

Along with that I spoke on the view that WEP is a little more forgiving within DCS than I had expected, which consequently allows it to be used like a "turbo" button.

 

If I were able to chug around on WEP all day like David, then I'd agree that we have a problem! However, since I'm having difficulties reaching even the (conservative) limit in the USAAF manual, I'm not convinced that there's a modelling problem. So, I don't feel that my use of WEP (firewalling it for <5 minutes to keep myself from being shot down) is unhistorical in the least--indeed, I've read of several fighter pilots who, as policy, immediately went full WEP at first sight of an enemy. Not a universal practice, but not unheard of in the real war.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Echo38

[Paradox]

I'm not a tremendously good P-51 pilot by any stretch but I do advise setting up some quickly reachable key commands (I use the switches on the warthog that I'd never use otherwise) for manual radiator control. It makes a lot of difference for me. There's no substitute for going fast for cooling but dropping out the radiator does wonders for engine cooling, even at 200 - 250 mph. I don't advise being over 61" MP at those speeds though even with an open radiator.

 

My tactical abilities are worse than useless however, this is just my observation.

 

As an aside: I'm very interested to see how other WWII aircraft deal with this sort of thing, I gather that most German aircraft didn't have manual cooling controls.

[Merlin-27]

If I were able to chug around on WEP all day like David, then I'd agree that we have a problem! However, since I'm having difficulties reaching even the (conservative) limit in the USAAF manual, I'm not convinced that there's a modelling problem. So, I don't feel that my use of WEP (firewalling it for <5 minutes to keep myself from being shot down) is unhistorical in the least--indeed, I've read of several fighter pilots who, as policy, immediately went full WEP at first sight of an enemy. Not a universal practice, but not unheard of in the real war.

 

I couldn't resist doing a little WEP test tonight. I jumped on the server and grabbed an air-start P-51D in my Battle in the Bay mission. It's a summer map with an air temp of 28 C.

 

I descended to 3 thousand feet and engaged WEP (67"/3000). Flew to the Gudauta radio tower and flew a tight right hand circle around the tower trying to maintain 200mph indicated with an altitude of 500-1000 feet using combat flap setting. I maintained this turn for 15 minutes. Airspeed varied from 220-180 mph. I then broke off and flew a gradual left-hand turn for 5 minutes then returned to the radio tower and started a tight left hand turn with the same parameters as the previous circle. After 5 minutes of the left hand turn around the tower I flew out over the Gudauta airfield and started climbing. At around 7,500 ft the engine seized. I then performed a dead-stick landing at Gudauta and parked.

 

Total continuous WEP time before failure: 29 minutes

 

This is almost twice the recommended time for Full Military Power.

 

Just sayin':music_whistling:

 

Side note: I did have the coolant radiator Full Open as I typically do in a fight. The oil radiator was left in Auto.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

Ah, but what about when you reach the level of proficiency where neither pilot is making noticeable mistakes in his maneuvering? .......

What are you doing differently than me? Why am I struggling to reach even 5 minutes on WEP, but you're able to do a half-hour? Manual radiator? Are you turning at medium speeds (~200–250), or are you keeping your speed high (300+)? You flying at high alt and/or in winter?

 

ok when im speaking about mistakes, im not talking about tactical ones, as this would even be harder to compare then.i was talking about fights, where we eventually ended up in horizontal turnfights(so both made the same tactical mistake on purpose)

when im speaking about a mistake, then im talking about i tiny little unintentional movement with the stick during a several minutes long lasting turn fight. those pilots i fought are the most proficient ones currently flying in DCS world.

 

what am i doing differently than you?well i dont know!when i used it, i surely was most of the time between speeds of 150 and 250, and only very short periods faster than that, in all temperatures from winter to summer maps, and most of the time, pretty low.

 

well, i do have the radiators manually open during fights though, unlike you!and what i noticed is, that if you dont fly coordinated,even for short periods, the engine temps will rise much quicker.

Edited October 29, 2013 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Echo38]

It's a summer map with an air temp of 28 C.

Total continuous WEP time before failure: 29 minutes

This is almost twice the recommended time for Full Military Power.

I did have the coolant radiator Full Open as I typically do in a fight. The oil radiator was left in Auto.

 

The variable must be the radiators, then. Remarkable! If I ever get back in the virtual sky, I'll be sure to try fiddling with them.

 

I'm still not ready to say that the sim is wrong, though; the five minute was a conservative figure, USAAF aircraft manuals often were in error and/or at strong odds with the manufacturer's own recommendations & data, and we don't know exactly how soon the more dramatic consequences of excessive WEP should began to manifest. Although I'm not ruling out the possibility of sim error, there may be yet be an explanation for the apparent discrepancy. (I even find myself wondering if the real P-51 manual had the five-minute limit because the USAAF personnel responsible for the manual didn't ever try it with the radiators manually opened! These sorts of fumbles plagued the P-38 manual, for sure.)

 

Although no human is infallible, I have a great deal of faith in Yo-Yo, because all of his work that I can comprehend has thus far matched what I've learned from reliable sources. Meanwhile, USAAF aircraft manuals have been proven to be unreliable at times, due to blockheadedness somewhere in the Army chain of command. (The same sort that insisted that the redundant, entirely useless, and ultimately harmful external mass balances be added to the P-38 elevator, against the protests of the designers, and incorrectly listed MIL figures as WEP for the L model. I could go on!)

 

I ask myself if my reluctance to call this wrong is as simple as me wanting to believe the sim is right (which would be a logical flaw on my part), but I don't think that's it. Rather, E.D. have earned a rare degree of trust with me as sim developers, due to the fidelity of the simulation in just about every area in which I am knowledgeable. So, while I agree that this issue should be scrutinized, I'm still not convinced that it's wrong; I'm inclined to look for an explanation.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Echo38

[EAKMotorsports]

thx guys for the some tips.

[NaCH]

 

Total continuous WEP time before failure: 29 minutes

 

 

 

Can you explain the process for keeping 29 minutes of WEP time?

 

 

I will also suggest to read this thread.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94810

[jay43]

Anyone had a head on with her i accidently got target fixation the other night right off the bat, spotted her coming at me head on lined myself up and started shooting, both of us at the same time that is and boom we both collided.

 

But in the De-briefing Dora pilot died first so i'll take that as a kill even though it was short lived for only 1 second, i just couldn't believe he didn't move.

[cichlidfan]

But in the De-briefing Dora pilot died first so i'll take that as a kill even though it was short lived for only 1 second, i just couldn't believe he didn't move.

 

Never play chicken with the AI. :P

[Merlin-27]

Can you explain the process for keeping 29 minutes of WEP time?

 

 

 

 

 

I will also suggest to read this thread.

 

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94810

 

 

I wrote that about a year ago... Scroll up a little more and you will see that I explained, in detail, how I flew WEP for 29 minutes.

 

Since there have been quite a few updates between then & now I have no idea how the results would look today. There really is no need to fly with WEP for such a long duration.

[bkthunder]

I wrote that about a year ago... Scroll up a little more and you will see that I explained, in detail, how I flew WEP for 29 minutes.

 

Since there have been quite a few updates between then & now I have no idea how the results would look today. There really is no need to fly with WEP for such a long duration.

 

 

I posted these a while ago 'cause my engine never fails no matter what I do. Never got an explanation, but seems like I'm not alone after all..

 

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