How do I combat

[Serp Supreme]

Seriously though, how? I'm no rookie to DCS, I've been flying for about 2 years. I'm pretty damn good in the A-10C, able to complete mission after mission without getting shot down. I've owned Black Shark 2 for a while now but never really played it. However my wingman is probably going to be buying it, what with the sale for this game on Steam and such. So, lets get to the good part:

 

I've been trying out the Ka-50 again, to try and get a feel for the gal again in pretty much every way. But I realized something upon launching the "Clear Tkvarcheiaofgnmeqi3nt" mission. I have absolutely no idea how to fight in a helicopter. I tried hovering (it was more of a slow crawl towards the target) at near maximum Vikhr range, but got shot down by MANPADs and other missiles.. So I tried passes at high speed, putting Vikhrs down range until I got too close for them, then switching to rockets, but I found myself getting wrecked by AAA and everything else in the area. That stuff works when I'm in my A-10, orbiting or flying over for bombs, all while at a high altitude. ¯\(°_o)/¯

 

Now, I do understand that this is a helicopter, and its not meant to fight like a Hog.

 

So can someone give me a basic overview of how combat in the Black Shark works, and some simple enough tactics that go along with it?

[Yurgon]

So can someone give me a basic overview of how combat in the Black Shark works, and some simple enough tactics that go along with it?

 

It's obviously a matter of experience, and depends a bit on your personal style.

 

What works for me (most of the time) is to take it slow, stay well beyond the range of known or suspected enemy units and take a lot of time to scout the area until I get a feeling for the battlefield.

 

The Vikhr missiles outrange all manpads and most threats you'll encounter (depending on the mission and the scenario). If you find yourself within the engagement zone of the enemy, you've probably progressed too far.

 

The AI wingmen can be a tremendous help if you know their limits. They're eagle-eyed zombies, ie. they can spot just about anything, but they'll commit suicide and try to drag you with them if you let them do anything on their own.

 

In my experience, it's best to use them for recce (just one or two klicks so they won't go too far) and only have them attack isolated targets under strict supervision (have the comms menu ready to "Rejoin formation" so that they're forced to break off their attack if they do something stupid).

 

With a bit of practice and proficiency, you should be able to pick off targets all across the battlefield and find that the true limitation is the laser burning out after about two dozen Vikhrs.

 

Speaking of Vikhrs, in manual mode you can engage stationary targets at up to 10 klicks, possibly even more. If you're in a good firing position 8 or 9 klicks from the target, give manual mode a shot (pun intended :) ).

 

I hardly ever use rockets. If I do, I use large salvos at long range (absolutely no less than 2 klicks) against lightly armored targets. They're area effect weapons, but rookies tend to use them to snipe at short distance and then get shot out of the sky by Iglas/Stingers.

 

The cannon is great at up to 4 klicks, though your mileage may vary depending on distance and target type.

 

Finally, the right tactic also depends on the mission. Some missions are ridiculously difficult, others require you to employ bad tactics, and some are truly brilliant.

 

The "Deployment" campaign features a lot of great missions, most of them fairly simple, with a few difficult and/or long ones in between.

 

Georgian Oil War can be very repetitive and you should definitely know how to engage enemy choppers.

 

Operation Medvedev is another cool campaign. I've never finished it, but the first couple of missions are very well done. Someone turned it into MP coop, but I'm not sure whether that is still available and compatible with the currect DCS version. I had a lot of fun flying it with a buddy in BS2 (pre-world). :thumbup:

[ShuRugal]

first, know your target area. know where the target is, know where the threats are (if you can find them all) know where cover (read: hills) can be found.

 

Second, plan your attack run. make use of your datalink panel to create target points. make one for your main objective, make another for any AAA/MANPADS threats between you and target. Practice switching between target point until you can do it quickly enough to not interrupt your ingress.

 

Third, plan your exit. Which way will you break? pick a direction that allows you to put terrain between yourself and your target area.

 

Finally, execute. Run in at about 120 kph IAS. Take out any missile throwers first, then concentrate on your main objective. If you are uncertain of how much AD survived, break off your approach no closer than 5k from the target. Release flares, turn, dive and accelerate out.

 

Rinse and repeat as needed.

 

A note on enemy AD capability:

 

1: all MANDAPS are pretty much guaranteed to ruin your day, and there's not much you can do but hope your wingman calls them out for you, or that you see them first.

 

2: Vehicle-based IR-SAMs are also a bitch, but those are easier to spot, so should provide you with less trouble.

 

3: next come AAA threats. the Shilka is deadly inside 2km, but pretty much defenseless outside that. you can hover at 3km and pick him off with your cannon and never lose. Zu-23 are even more useless. Unless you overfly one by accident, they will never be a serious threat to you. Now, BMP-2. This is a serious threat because it mounts the same 2A42 cannon you do, and on a more stable firing platform. He can gun you down from just as far away as you can gun him down. Don't try to go guns with more than 1 or 2 of them unless you are seriously confident in your piloting abilities.

 

4: finally, radar SAMs. I order these last not because they are the least dangerous, but because you are least likely to have trouble out of them (or, alternately, least able to do anything about it). In hilly terrain, the only time a radar SAM will be able to paint you clearly should be while you have a vikhr on the way to him. You get nailed by a radar SAM in the mountains and you're doing it very wrong. On open ground if you know there are radar SAMs about, stay low. If i'm on a multiplayer server i generally dont climb above 50m AGL except to make popup attacks or momentary popups for visual target searching. If i have to go toe-to-to with a radar SAM in open ground, i do it at 10m and 250+kph, close as fast as i can, and make a gunfight of it. If he launches on you, don't flinch, that low the guidance lock will be lost and the missile will self destruct or pass you harmlessly, then you can close in and gun him down. I do this to lone TOR and Osa SAMs all the time. Only time i die is if i climb too high.

 

 

Aside from that, the biggest thing that helps is to make use of your autopilot. if you put on route mode and automatic-turn-to-target, the helicopter will fly itself wherever the shkval is pointed, which by itself makes the job a lot easier, especially if you are making a low and fast against a radar SAM. Set altitude hold and speed while flying transverse, then use AP to turn in and maintain ground-skimming while you focus on nailing the sucker.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

What they said really.

 

Study the maps and known threats until you can point them out blindfolded, and learn how to use the autopilot. Your life will feel 10x easier once you get the hang of it :)

[Suchacz]

Using Rambo-style is mostly a bad idea, try to be more like a sneaky sniper :gun_sniper:

 

Great article "Guide to Surving MANPADS, AAA, and other nasties" on SimHQforum:

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2915432/Guide_to_Surving_MANPADS_AAA_a#Post2915432

 

and another very useful reading:

 

http://realandsimulatedwars.yolasite.com/dcs-black-shark-tactics-primer.php

Edited December 1, 2013 by Suchacz

[ScottishMartialArts]

The key thing to remember with attack helicopters is that there is a reason they belong to the Army rather than the Air Force. In other words, attack helicopters are GROUND MANEUVER ELEMENTS that just happen to use rotors, rather than legs, wheels, or treads, to get around. Practically speaking, this means you need to fight like an infantryman, rather than an attack plane pilot, albeit an infantryman who can "walk" 300km/h and can effectively engage, and kill, armored and hardened targets from 8km away.

 

So how do infantrymen fight? Well, infantryman know that as soon as something can see them, it can kill them, so they use covered and concealed routes to get to their objective. If time permits, they may take a very round about way to get to the objective, so as to arrive at it unobserved, and from a direction the enemy isn't covering with his weapon systems.

 

Once at the objective, infantrymen, recognizing the ease with which they can be killed, fight from cover. They may move to get to a better firing position, or in response to the enemy's movements, but when they're actually shooting, they do so from a stationary, covered position. Likewise, when they do move, there is another friendly element that is suppressing the enemy's weapon systems which are positioned to threaten that movement.

 

Finally, an infantryman fights making use of his knowledge of his, and his enemy's, weapon systems and their capabilities. He exploits the capabilities of his weapons to best defeat the capabilities of the enemy's weapons.

 

So let's bring this back to attack helicopters. Prior to the start of a mission, you need to perform a METT-T analysis (Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops, Time). Consider what your mission objective is and plan your flight accordingly (what MUST I kill to complete the mission, and what can be bypassed?). Identify where your enemy is, in what numbers, and with what weapons, if known, and adjust your plan accordingly (given his position, what is the engagement envelope of that SAM?). Perform a terrain analysis, looking for routes to the objective (will this route get me there without being shot at?), positions of cover and/or concealment (could I use this spot as a fighting position?), all while considering the capabilities of your weapons (from this fighting position, am I close enough to engage with Vihkr's) and the enemy's (am I in range/in line of sight at this spot?). Consider how large your flight is, which and how many weapons you'll be carrying, and the location and mission of friendly forces (will that advancing friendly armor company be in a position to engage enemy air defenses?). Finally, consider how much time you have to complete the objective (do I have enough time to take this route? how swiftly do I need to reach/accomplish the objective?).

 

Once your METT-T analysis is complete, edit your flight plan, loadout, and target points accordingly. The latter are particularly useful for marking known enemy air defenses. Likewise, your flight plan should make use of cover and concealment, perhaps positioning waypoints at covered fighting positions from which you plan to engage the enemy. When planning your mission and your fighting positions, always try to place them such that you can engage the enemy at maximum Vihkr range, only relying on closing to cannon or rocket range if you can be reasonably certain enemy air defenses are suppressed or destroyed. Likewise, always think about what MUST be destroyed to complete your objective, and what can be bypassed. Many people think the Oil War campaign reconnaissance missions are brutally hard, but that's only because they stick with the default flight plan which has them flying directly over the enemy main line of resistance to get to the objective: if you can bypass the enemy's lines to get to the objective, rather than fighting through a company of tanks with attached air defenses, then BYPASS!

 

If you plan analytically, and fight smartly, as above, then you'll quickly discover that an attack helicopter is one very deadly machine that stands a better than reasonable shot of coming home. Just watch out for enemy helicopters. But, on the other hand, when you see that hellfire coming right for you, you can just mask behind cover, because you're fighting from a covered fighting position, right?

Edited December 22, 2013 by ScottishMartialArts

[Justo Swank]

^ Ah, but the Ka-50 is used by the Russian Airforce. Everything else you said is void and unreadable. :megalol:

 

Jk, good advice.

[Davis0079]

use the shkval camera to scout around and recon more then you use the flight stick to fly around and fight....until this ratio is 90% shkval to 10% flight stick, you will get shot down alot

[JHzlwd]

This is a good question as it got me thinking about the differences between fixed-wing (f-w) and helicopter combat. I flew f-w for many years before Ka50 but got hooked and now fly nothing else. You already have some excellent responses so will just fill in a bit with my personal observations:

 

01 - It is essential to fully master the weird flight model. A f-w is very easy by comparison. You have to be able to transition quickly, easily and predictably amongst hover/forward/backward/sideways/up/down and funnel maneuvers. In my case an early error in thinking was to fly as if in a f-w ... mostly linear and fast (for a helo) with long, sweeping turns at higher altitude where a helicopter is a sitting duck even for rifle fire. The great strength of a helicopter lies in its 3D maneuverability at low speed and low altitude where it can find cover while springing some surprises on its victims. That should be the foundation of your tactics. I have put together a custom mission wherein the task is to defend a motorcade arriving from Adler airport for the Sochi Olympic Games. To succeed you have to hunt down terrorists with RPGs and IED remote triggers lurking amongst buildings. This mission would be impossible even to consider using f-w aircraft. In a Ka50 it's fun as you do your pop-ups, funnels and sideways strafing maneuvers while dodging the buildings and never getting above 60 km/h.

 

02 - Pay extra attention to the collective. It is a deceptively simple flight control. It took me awhile to discover that sensitive adjustment of the collective was as much an art to develop as use of the cyclic. My f-w experience caused me initially to think of it as a sort of throttle, which is a very limiting perception. After all, its mechanical motion couldn't be simpler. Small, frequent adjustments in combination with cyclic positioning will produce subtle maneuvers combining precise control of altitude with completely independent positioning in the horizontal plane ... something f-w's are incapable of. Because you don't have much speed, exact positioning is essential to mission success with complex interaction between cyclic and collective being the key.

 

03 - Get comfortable with unguided rockets. The Vikhr is fantastic for stand-off engagements and perfect for cleaning out deadly AAA units at a safe distance but rockets are devastating closer-in. They're tricky because you have to factor in their drift owing to motion of the helicopter but with lots of practice you learn to compensate. You now have a surprisngly precise weapon which, unlike the Vikhr, can be fired in an instant and spattered around a considerable area to take out multiples. Some folks don't like rockets but I use them a lot. The biggest downside is how long it takes to get accurate with them. And don't forget the cannon. Slaved to the targeting system it is very effective at long range. At any range within its capability the rounds travel faster than rockets, making it highly suitable for when the target motion relative to yours is large.

 

In summary:

 

- Master the intricacies of helicopter flight until they become seond nature. The unit should feel like part of you.

- Exploit the helicopter's peculiar strengths while avoiding the weaknesses.

- Choose the right weapon for the occasion.

[canox204]

Hey this is exactly the thread I was looking for.. thanks OP and everyone who posted their strategies!

[kampf]

me too. thanks for yours suggestions. :)

[adese]

This was a great questions with some very good answers. Funny enough, I was wondering the same thing since I left BS1 a long time ago and am just coming back to it. After lots of A10 and FC3, it is hard to get back in the mindset of a helicopter's roll and limitations vs. a fixed wing.

 

I have been doing some flight practice myself with no goals, just getting used to the physics of the airframe (which seems to have been updated quite a bit since BS1). Also, I really like the tutorial on datalink with wingmen - I think it highlights the pacing of attacks; that they are planned and almost entirely standoff positioning. I am always tempted to fly in full speed and do runs on targets but realistically that never works as desired. ScottishMartialArts' analogy to infantrymen was a great one.

[BitMaster]

[quote=....

 

02 - Pay extra attention to the collective. It is a deceptively simple flight control. It took me awhile to discover that sensitive adjustment of the collective was as much an art to develop as use of the cyclic. My f-w experience caused me initially to think of it as a sort of throttle, which is a very limiting perception. After all, its mechanical motion couldn't be simpler. Small, frequent adjustments in combination with cyclic positioning will produce subtle maneuvers combining precise control of altitude with completely independent positioning in the horizontal plane ... something f-w's are incapable of. Because you don't have much speed, exact positioning is essential to mission success with complex interaction between cyclic and collective being the key.

.

 

Very good guides on successful helicopter warfare indeed.

 

One thing I would like to add that I do know from first hand 3D-Helicopters in the R/C world

is that no helicopters can fully maneuver if you have the collective anywhere between 75-100% travel.

If you had worked and adjusted rotor heads you could actually see why this cannot happen, the movement of the swash-plate is limited, it can only do a "either - or" but not both at very high or very low collective settings.

 

So, whenever you need RAPID correction of your flight attitude, get your collective back to middle at around hover and be ready to quickly increase pitch again to compensate for lift loss after attitude change.

 

I.E. trying to pull out of a fast, nose straight down dive will work ALOT better with pitch at medium settings as compared to have it at max or almost max to "pre-"compensate for the following need of lift force. Just don't forget to add pitch to stop falling like a brick once you regained level flight attitude after the vertical-nose-down-dive.

 

 

I always had trouble getting my R/C heli out of "strange" situations until a good friend of mine, real pilot and multiple national R/C contest winner told me what I was doing WRONG with the collective as he watched my fingers/sticks. Ever since...it is so much easier since I work with the heli and not against it anymore.

 

Bit

[ShuRugal]

I always had trouble getting my R/C heli out of "strange" situations until a good friend of mine, real pilot and multiple national R/C contest winner told me what I was doing WRONG with the collective as he watched my fingers/sticks. Ever since...it is so much easier since I work with the heli and not against it anymore.

 

Bit

 

hehehe, indeed. Collective management is an important skill, especially if you are dealing with scale power/weight ratios. My Raptor 30 has identical kg/kW as the KA-50 (albiet with a much more favourable disk loading) and the first thing i learned was to drop the collective before entering into any aggressive maneuvers.

 

Of course, with newer electric helis, the instantaneous torque availability is so insane that you can just run around at full pitch and not notice any degradation, except in terms of shortened battery life...

[BitMaster]

hehehe, indeed. Collective management is an important skill, especially if you are dealing with scale power/weight ratios. My Raptor 30 has identical kg/kW as the KA-50 (albiet with a much more favourable disk loading) and the first thing i learned was to drop the collective before entering into any aggressive maneuvers.

 

Of course, with newer electric helis, the instantaneous torque availability is so insane that you can just run around at full pitch and not notice any degradation, except in terms of shortened battery life...

 

ShuRugal

 

it is not the actual power that is missing, it is the available movement left for the swash-plate to act. In fact, it is even more complex..lemme try to explain.: When having full, or almost full collective pitch all rotor blades around the 360° have a positive angle of attack near the limit, now imagine pulling out of a dive, which actually means, HIGH PITCH cyclic at the nose of the Heli, some LOW PITCH cyclic at the tail and since it can't do miracles...the blades have about 145° left in-between to do the transition from 1°-12° with the Ka and about from -4°-+15° with our 3D choppers. The blade can only do either or...in our case, pulling up the nose won't work cause 270° of your rotor plane already have full pitch from collective, there is no additional change it blade angle of attack that you can throw in the game to pull the nose, a mere 1-2° will be all that is left to add some vector to the beast. Since pulling up doesn't mean that also the tail is forced down, there is no Way-B to get the nose up or AKA tail down, you will have to live with the 1-2° Blade AOA that is left. Power has nothing to do with it as long as you have enough. I personally think the more kW you have in it the harder this effect gets going. My pal flies his .60 size ( standard full size ) heli with 13kWh.. he got all the power you need in 1.6m rotor diameter.

 

I actually stopped flying heli some years ago before the big LiPo BL type of perpetuator came out and had to live with .60 cu-inch OS-Max 2-stroke with like 1.3 kW and the same heli weight more or less.

These days you can ten-fold your available power without 40% Nitro ( 20% for extra power, the other 20 for cooling your cylinder head so the first 20 don't ruin your japanese friend ).

 

 

Take your swash-plate, unhook the servos so it travels freely, now give full pitch... what else can it do then ? Not much :(

 

It is very self explaining when you look at the mechanics working their job up & down and around.

 

Bit

Edited January 14, 2014 by BitMaster
error in my rotor head

[ShuRugal]

ShuRugal

 

it is not the actual power that is missing, it is the available movement left for the swash-plate to act. In fact, it is even more complex..l

Take your swash-plate, unhook the servos so it travels freely, now give full pitch... what else can it do then ? Not much :(

 

It is very self explaining when you look at the mechanics working their job up & down and around.

 

Bit

 

The mechanical limits largely depend on the airframe design. The Nexus I started with, my raptor 30 as we'll both hit aerodynamic limits before running out of swash travel, but yes, mechanical travel is a limiting factor in most designs.

[BitMaster]

The mechanical limits largely depend on the airframe design. The Nexus I started with, my raptor 30 as we'll both hit aerodynamic limits before running out of swash travel, but yes, mechanical travel is a limiting factor in most designs.

 

ShuRugal,

 

it applies to any helicopter, regardless of power, airframe or other limitations.

 

Helis react best to cyclic input when collective is around hover.

 

 

Bit

[F99th-Cooper]

 

In summary:

 

- Master the intricacies of helicopter flight until they become seond nature. The unit should feel like part of you.

- Exploit the helicopter's peculiar strengths while avoiding the weaknesses.

- Choose the right weapon for the occasion.

 

 

Perfect - the only thing I would add is -read the briefing very carefully, never get closer than 7.5k from SAMS or armor, 8.4k is my preferred Vikhr launch range, and always remember -LOW-SLOW-SCAN-SCAN and then SCAN some more!

Edited January 15, 2014 by F99th-Cooper

[roob]

You must fight, like a ninja!

 

Hide, observe, focus, move and strike with extreme agility and speed!

Then return to the shadows...