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Posted

It is a good and modern fighter by its price; great data link and the future possibility to buy the meteor though this won't be so easy. His radar though modern is lacking a bit in detection range against the superbug's and even the one in the rafale. The only downpart I see is his range. Correct me if I'm wrong but the gripen is the shortest legged out of the three contenders and brazil is a big country with lots of jungle without airbases, it will rely heavily on air refueling I guess.

Posted

Falcon 120: I think it`s less expensive than the other two, that`s the reason of buying it. We have Amazon forest but in the north part of Brasil.

They say that we`ll gain technology with it, we`ll be building some in the future...

Posted (edited)
Was it a good choice?

 

We had the Rafale, Super Hornet and Saab Gripen to choose...:music_whistling:

 

The gripen is a great plane for a central European Country not a large emerging country Like Brazil. As much as I love it for its simplicity and punch (Brazil wont get the Meteor, it will now beg the French for some MICA missiles). Its exactly the opposite what Brazil needs, IMHO a poor choice.

The Decision was clearly a Political one.

 

It is a good and modern fighter by its price; great data link and the future possibility to buy the meteor though this won't be so easy. His radar though modern is lacking a bit in detection range against the superbug's and even the one in the rafale. The only downpart I see is his range. Correct me if I'm wrong but the gripen is the shortest legged out of the three contenders and brazil is a big country with lots of jungle without airbases, it will rely heavily on air refueling I guess.

 

The Rafale is getting AESA these days. RBE2 radar has double the range of the previous PESA unit and more than enough to deal with targets at distance to use the Meteor.

Edited by Pilotasso

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Posted

Brazil prefers weapon sources like France, Israel and South Africa who are far more liberal regarding restrictions. The Hornet lost because of weapons restrictions USA would impose on Brazil.

 

Also, before Anyone asks, Current president Dilma opposed the previous president Lula's Choice of the Rafale, so the gripen was the only plane left. Most countries choose planes by careful technical consideration, Brazil simply awarded the tender by exclusion of political factors.

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Posted
Brazil prefers weapon sources like France, Israel and South Africa who are far more liberal regarding restrictions. The Hornet lost because of weapons restrictions USA would impose on Brazil.

 

What kind of restrictions? At least, I simply don't see a reason for Germany (development partner of Meteor) to disallow a sale of Meteor to Brazil. I think EADS would be very happy about export customers. EADS explicitly said that they will need more foreign customers because of shrinking European budgets.

Posted
Well, Rafale would be better choice, IMHO as well.

 

BTW, these tenders are always big politics first, and everything else second ...

 

As far as I can see, the only credible opposition in the region are the 24 Venezuelan Su-30s. May be some experts can shed some light on how the Gripens would fare against them.

Posted (edited)
What kind of restrictions? At least, I simply don't see a reason for Germany (development partner of Meteor) to disallow a sale of Meteor to Brazil. I think EADS would be very happy about export customers. EADS explicitly said that they will need more foreign customers because of shrinking European budgets.

Its MBDA, in collaboration with a multitude of countries among them the USA (to be integrated onto the F-35).

 

Both the EU and USA could impose a condition to supply missiles only "when needed" type of deal outside the group trusted allies (Brazil has been increasing its distance from the USA). If Brazil ever engaged in any armed conflict those weapons would be subject to approval and quite possibly embargoed.

This was part of the deal for the hornet with the FX-1 tender which was cancelled and restarted with FX-2. Brazil intends independence as much as it can, so it acquired second hand R-Darter missiles From south Africa, Python 4 from Israel. And has a number of indigenous weapons development programs.

Edited by Pilotasso

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Posted
Its MBDA, in collaboration with a multitude of countries among them the USA (to be integrated onto the F-35).

 

Yeah but with the participation of EADS AFAIK.

 

Both the EU and USA could impose a condition to supply missiles only "when needed" type of deal outside the group trusted allies (Brazil has been increasing its distance from the USA).

 

German government spokesman calls Saudi-Arabia an anchor of stability to justify weapon sales to there. Trust me, the German government will readily name Brazil a "trusted ally" if they want to buy our weapons, lol.

 

Of course I can't speak for the other European countries.

Posted
Why not?

 

It would unbalanced the region, the meteor would be too much for a region where it does not exist more than a handfull of amraams from the first blocks . And countries like UK,Germany etc... wouldn't be willing to sell his cutting edge technology in missiles to countries that are not very close allies.

Posted

Lula and Dilma belongs to PT. (Left party of the workers)

We're with 10 years of PT policy and in the case of these airplanes the USA would be left out. Brasil didn't received well the spy case from the USA government and the Grippen costs a lot of less to operate in our third world country.

Posted
As far as I can see, the only credible opposition in the region are the 24 Venezuelan Su-30s. May be some experts can shed some light on how the Gripens would fare against them.

 

I see it from another angle. Brazil right now doesn't have much of an airforce to speak about, only a hatfull of F-5's. All its neighbours have F-16's, Su-30's Mig-29's Mirage 2000's etc etc. It currently is at a huge disadvantage to practically anyone else in the region.

 

By the time Brazil fields the Gripen it wont be THAT much better and what's worse is that everyone else will probably having tenders of their own for newer planes by then. The Advantage of the Gripen NG will be eroded or nullified in short term.

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Posted

the states will weigh in very heavily on any NATO decision to supply munitions to Brazil, if for nothing else than the military cooperation between China and Brazil at the moment (ie setting up China's Fleet air arm) the last thing the yanks want is for the chinese to gain access to something like Meteor. MDBA stands to gain more from selling the rights to the yanks if they chose to integrate it with the f-35 than selling a few hundred units to the Brazilians i would speculate.

 

you get what you pay for, i recall reading that the Swedish government where worried about the vulnerablility of the first generation of Gripens. the fact the Finns have stuck with the hornet i reckon adds some credibilty to this. If the Brazilians get the upgraded variant which of coarse will raise the price tag, this may change?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Posted (edited)
The Hornet lost because of weapons restrictions USA would impose on Brazil.[/Quote]...

Most countries choose planes by careful technical consideration, Brazil simply awarded the tender by exclusion of political factors.

Doesn't the first bit contradict the second ?

 

I would say though that the statement that politics drives most governments' weapons systems purchases is probably true - That's why so many European countries ended up with F-16's.

In the end it's ended up a capable multi-role aircraft, but it seemed at the time that the F-16 got in Europe's door on the back of lobbying from the US

Edited by Weta43

Cheers.

Posted

Does anyone know if the number of aircrafts bought changed now that they selected a cheaper system? Also, do Brazil use road-airfields?

DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN

 

There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is.

Posted
The fact the Finns have stuck with the hornet i reckon adds some credibilty to this.

Gripen wasn't even in service when Finland was considering options in the early 90ies. Even though Gripen was in the competition, the Hornet was already in service and a proven versatile platform. Finland did jump into the NH90 program very early though but I guess the thinking had changed.

Hornet has also just received the mid life upgrade which tells that it's way too early to be already switching to a new type. They are preparing the competition for the next fighter though and Gripen will most definitely be in. The Hornet will pass out in 2030 at the latest so the current version of Gripen might be old by then.

 

Congratulations to Saab! Whether it's the best choice for Brazil or not, I'm sure they won't be disappointed with the quality.

Posted

As Griffin said "I'm sure they won't be disappointed with the quality", I hope so.

 

We live in a country that lives in Peace with it's neighbours and we don't see a war for almost 200 years...

 

The war we have are almost exclusively against internationals traffickers.

Posted (edited)
...

 

Doesn't the first bit contradict the second ?

 

 

Why is that so? The restrictions are considered because of political differences between the 2 countries. The hornet was driven out of the competition despite being technically capable of achieving all the Brazilian requirements (both land and carrier capable and better electronics). I got news it was the plane preferred by the military at some point before the disqualification.

 

I would say though that the statement that politics drives most governments' weapons systems purchases is probably true - That's why so many European countries ended up with F-16's.

In the end it's ended up a capable multi-role aircraft, but it seemed at the time that the F-16 got in Europe's door on the back of lobbying from the US

 

Not so sure about that. What I can tell you is that the F-16 countries got their planes 5 years before the Mirage 2000 was made available making the Falcon clearly far more attractive as being the only 4th generation option in their tenders.

In the Case for Portugal, The Mirage competed with the Falcon. The F-16 offered to us was multirole while the Mirage version offered was not, and being more expensive at the same time.

Edited by Pilotasso

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Posted

In my opinion, the transfer of technology and the possibility in taking part on the development process have decided the competition. The Rafale is too expensive and our air force dislikes the french support. The americans don't transfer technology even if the S. Hornet is an aging fighter... And there is the spy incident...

 

We are disposing our Mirage 2000 this month. Our modernized F-5 will fill the gap until the Gripen arrives.

 

About the Meteor missile, I see no reason for MBDA to deny it. It would not inbalance the region because Chile, Peru and Venezuela all have modern BVR missiles. Also, I think we should develop a new BVR missile with Denel (like the A-darter program).

Posted

Ok,

 

First of all Brazil use the Derby not the R-Dater version and probably will continue to use this missile, because it's less expensive to acquire then the Meteor. Brazil will not have any embargos from any country, we don’t have problems with the Europeans and they are disputing for the Brazilian navy contract, everybody (Germay, UK, Spain, Italy, France) are trying to please us for this contract.

 

 

Yesterday at night I was talking with my father who was in the meeting with the president before the announcement. He spoke with a high ranked officer of the air force that told him that they are very happy with the Gripen because of the opportunity to develop a program for the country. It is a great opportunity for all the companies involved.

 

 

Of course that de F-18 is a better plane, but if we had bought it would never flew because of the lack of funds. It would be the queen of the hangar like the Venezuelan’s SU-30s or the Peruvians Mig-29s.

With the Gripens Brazil will need more than 36 planes to defend the territory because of the range of the airplane.

 

 

We have 4 bases in the forest that could be used in case of war, but only 3 operate fighters in peace times.

This Gripens will be allocated in the capital and in the south (the forest is in the north).

Posted

Considering our country's past when it comes to international arms deals, anyone want to take bets on how long it takes before heads are rolling within the Brazilian air force and government for accepting bribes from SAAB?

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