Floyd1212

I'm guessing ED is not advertising that the Apache can be flown solely from the CPG seat at this time. So, until ED fleshes out George as PLT to include startup and shutdown, your best bet is to get things up and running from the back seat, then switch to the front and go from there.

I think everyone can agree that the FM is still a WIP. ED has said it, and those of us that fly it have said it. Every so often we get a patch where ED has worked on the FM and made improvements, and we adjust to the new changes and life goes on. Over time, the FM has gotten much better, and I found the Apache quite enjoyable to fly. It had some quirks, but it was manageable if you put time in to practice and develop muscle memory. I don't think I am out of place to say the reason this specific thread was created 10 days ago by DaveTC is that after the last patch there was a noticeable change in the behavior of the tail rotor or SCAS that seemed like a step in the wrong direction. Instead of an improvement to the FM, this feels like a regression. And because there was a patch around Christmas time that specifically improved the behavior of the tail rotor and SCAS in low-speed flight, and while in a hover, there was concern that whatever changes that were made for that patch got "undone" with this one.

So you are saying this should be “Joystick Without Springs or FFB”? That sounds like one change they could make to make things clearer.

It means there is a bug...

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Thanks!

Just so we are all on the same page, the behavior of the tail rotor and the yaw channel of the SCAS was improved in patch DCS 2.9.11.4686 - 24.12.2024, and everybody was happy. This was a great improvement to the way the aircraft handled in low-speed flight, and while in a hover. Then, with the release of DCS 2.9.14.8222 - 19.03.2025, the improvements made in December seem to have been "undone", without any mention in the patch notes about other changes to the FM. The only thing mentioned in the changelog was relating to the Position Hold oscillations. I think everyone is trying to understand why this would have changed so drastically again, and if the tradeoff is worth it for the slightly improved Position Hold activation? Hopefully this can be restored back to the improved state we had been enjoying for months now in the next patch, and not have to wait during what can be a very long Early Access period.

Yes, as noted in this other bug report:

Thanks for the update

Since the recent patch to 2.9.14.8222, George is not getting a good IAT track on the center of mass of his target. The patch prior to this update (the one that forced him to switch to FLIR every time you told him to track a target) seemed to improve his tracking. But now, he will get his IAT lock on a target, but you can't tell how good of a track he got unless you switch him to DTV for a better look, or you tell him to rifle a Kilo and he misses. I can't post the track file, but here are some screenshots of his more questionable tracks from tonight.

Back when the Apache was getting FM updates on a more regular basis, I used to record a video of a short flight before installing an update, then record another video of the playback of the same track after applying the update. This would often result in the helo crashing after takeoff, or flying off somewhere completely different, as the same inputs made during the track playback before and after the update would result in very different behavior. Unfortunately, I didn't do this ahead of applying this update. Maybe I will start doing this again, as you never know when we might get a regression of some function or FM change.

Just flew for a couple hours and it is definitely a regression back to before they improved the yaw channel stability. While in a hover with Position Hold enabled, trying to use the pedals to rotate left or right results in over-correction and oscillations.

I feel like the yaw is twitchy again, as well. Prior to this patch they had greatly improved the behavior of the tail, but I feel like they have regressed to a previous state when they messed with the position hold in this last patch.

You can still set it up in the cockpit, but the MBR DIR may not be the best option. Depending on how the mission is setup, or if there are dynamic spawns, the MBR DIR may not know about the other Apaches in the mission. You can set other members up manually by entering their C/S and ID, instead of using the MBR DIR.

(I performed a Repair of DCS, and removed all aircraft and tech mods from my saved games folder before launching DCS and recording this track.) I created a simple mission with a few units in front of a hot-start aircraft. These issues were also observed in a cold-start scenario, and in both SP and MP. BUG: The movement of the TADS is now jerky and erratic depending on zoom level. OBSERVE: Throughout the 3 minute track you can see me telling George to find targets and then I cycle through them in the list. When using FLIR and at the Wide zoom level, his motion is extremely abrupt with a quick oscillation back and forth when he gets to the target. He used to be much smother with his panning and scanning, and would do a pretty good job hitting center of mass when left in FLIR Wide. When you zoom to other FOV levels, he seems to be more natural. After switching him to DTV, he scans fine in Wide, but when I set him to Medium he freaks out and jiggles around all over the target. Moving to Narrow and Zoom FOV and he seems back to normal. A few times I would zoom in to show where he has picked up the IAT on the vehicle out toward the bumper or some other extremity of the vehicle. This appears to be a new bug introduced in 2.9.14.8222 as this was all working much better prior to that. Jerky TADS.trk

My previous posting of multiple bugs was moved and locked, so let's try this again, one at a time. (As suggested in the locked thread, I performed a Repair of DCS, and removed all aircraft and tech mods from my saved games folder before launching DCS and recording this track.) I created a simple mission with a few units in front of a hot-start aircraft. These issues were also observed in a cold-start scenario, and in both SP and MP. BUG: The Cued LOS Reticle does not track the Acquisition Source when FCR is the active Sight. OBSERVE: At 04:00:22 I set the FCR as the active sight. The CLOSR jumps to a position above the Head Tracker diamond. I then switch back to HMD and the CLOSR returns to normal. I again set my sight to FCR and the problem returns. At 04:00:56 I command George to find targets as I have HMD as my sight. He switches between targets as I select them form the list. Then I set my sight to FCR and the CLOSR no longer tracks the movement of the TADS. You do see it jiggle around a bit as he is switching between targets. This appears to be a new bug introduced in 2.9.14.8222 as this was working fine prior to that. FCR and Cued LOS Reticle.trk

They were originally observed in MP (with George in the front seat), then the track was produced in SP. So, both.

The update brought us some improved behavior for Position Hold; thank you for that. But unfortunately, there were many new bugs introduced. Attached is a short track file that demonstrates several of them in one flight. I honestly can't understand how some of these were not noticed during testing. It took us about 2 minutes of flying to come across the first bug described below. Or maybe these are known issues, and weren't mentioned in the patch notes as such? In the track I get things armed up and ready to go, and head out to the target range. (Apologies for the zoomed out POV for the flight out, the track didn't pick up my normal zoom level when I came out of the snap view.) 13:21:50 - On the way to the range I set the FCR as my active Sight. You will notice the Cued LOS Reticle jumps to a position above the Head Tracker diamond and stays there. My ACQ is TADS, and I bring up George and command him to slave to my LOS several times, but the Cued LOS Reticle jumps a bit, but essentially stays locked straight ahead. 13:22:46 - I change my Sight to HMD and the Cued LOS Reticle behaves normally again, following where George is looking with the TADS. However, George's movement with the TADS is extremely jerky. He slews it around while I select targets way too quickly now, and locks onto targets prematurely. I used to think he was too slow to establish a track, but this is not the solution either. 13:23:13 I change the TADS to DTV and zoom it in one step to Medium FOV, and George goes crazy with the TADS, twitching around wildly in the vicinity of the target. I step in and out through the zoom levels and repeat the behavior. It doesn't seem to happen when he is left on FLIR. 13:23:45 For the remainder of the flight I target a few different vehicles to demonstrate how George is very inconsistent with getting a good IAT lock on a static target. He was doing so much better prior to this patch. Now, sometimes he gets the center of mass, other times he barely catches a bumper or corner of the vehicle. While flying earlier tonight with my group, we were missing many targets with Kilos because he was not lasing the center of mass. We also experienced many instances tonight of George not firing the gun, or even not rifling missiles when we felt he should have been able to without issue. I don't have those saved in a track, but maybe someone else does and can contribute. Can we roll back the Apache to where we were prior to this patch? Honestly, the improvement in the Position Hold is nice, but not worth the new issues that my group was experiencing tonight, some of which are demonstrated above. It is very frustrating right now to fly with FCR going, and trying to use George. And one final thing we noticed, which did give us a bit of a chuckle... New Bugs.trk EDIT: Sorry, meant to post in the Bugs forum. Feel free to move it there.

I've actually found that when left in FLIR he does a better job targeting the center of mass of the unit. I often switch him to DTV after he has the lock, just so I can get a better look for myself. Not sure why that would be, but just an observation.

When doing mission editing and using the ALT map to see the terrain, the contour lines do not have enough contrast to be visible in some terrain types. Please consider using a different color with more contrast.

This is what mine looks like for comparison. I was basically interested that you were also calling them LEFT_MFCD and RIGHT_MFCD like I am, and it looks like you are. This seems to work for me. The only other thing I noticed is mine are defined above the Viewports definition, and yours are defined within Viewports. Not sure if that makes a difference.

Mine is located at: "C:\Users\username\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\MonitorSetup\CustomMonitor.lua" (I think the filename could be anything you defined it as, not necessarily as shown above, but should be at that path location, or similar.)

What does your active monitor.lua look like?

In your Monitor.lua file that defines the exports, you are using "LEFT_MFCD" and "RIGHT_MFCD"? Those are the generic names that will automatically switch with the seats. When the Apache was first released, there was a distinction between the PLT and CPG displays, but then they combined them so they would work properly. Maybe you are using an old profile? Edit: It looks like the profile you linked to is current, so it must be something else.

You are saying that when you are in the back seat, you get the displays from the front seat, and if you move to the front seat, the displays automatically change to show the back-seater’s MPDs? I don’t use that profile you linked, but I am not seeing that issue here. The display exports follow based on the seat I am occupying.