TAW_Blaze

So it's passively guiding on magical INS data that should only reflect last known intercept path, but is instead incorrectly continously updated with actual target data?

I haven't finished reading the manual but I'm fairly sure it's limited to certain degrees and bars around target track, not ownship centerline. Every other implementation of TWS works like that. Not even close when there is a dense airspace with multiple targets between 20-40 miles. If there's a formation of 6-8 guys standing off in front of you you probably won't even know where the missile came from when it goes active. In comparison if he does it in STT most likely you immediately know that there's a launch and exactly where it's coming from. Huge difference. Stealth is far more important than precision. The default reflex to a launch is to turn around and run. If you give away your launch by STTing him from 20+ miles your shot is a waste guaranteed. The update rate difference is meaningless in the context of the target maneuvering and the missile arriving at the wrong position. The only problem is losing the target track more easily. But this would probably only happen if they are notching, in which case the update rate is not the biggest issue.

I'm expecting DCS Cows tomorrow! muhaha :lol:

I think they want to flesh out mature systems of full fidelity such as the revamped radar, possibly new RWR modeling and whatever they have in mind and sell them in new modules like the Hornet and the Viper. Comparatively I imagine it would be a bad business decision to work on upgrading an aircraft that already exists on a lower level of fidelity. You get more revenue from selling completely new things. I hope once they are done with this they will bring the F-15C to an equal level :) The Cat and the Bug are cool, but an Eagle.. now that's something! :D

In unrelated news I wonder when we'll get actual weather systems and their effect on IR seekers modeled.

The real question is, if you have a bandit on your 6 why aren't you dead yet? In the age of thrust vectored IR imaging HOBS missiles I seriously doubt anyone will push a merge with guns. If he has missiles you're simply dead.

I checked not long ago on our stats but I don't recall the exact sample pool size, it was either 300 or 600 120B's that I fired that had a 0.5 pK overall on our server. But this number is still meaningless, if the opposition is good I might end up shooting 6 at him and he'll still be alive, regardless of the scenario. On the other hand against an average pilot you can easily do a 1 shot 1 kill sniper style. Currently the most annoying feature is the lack of ARH seeker memory. All you have to do is fly through the notch for a split second and most of the time this defeats the missile. I even tested it with AI which performed a 2G U turn which notched my shot 10/10 times.. I honestly triple facepalmed at this.

MWS isn't such a big deal unless you're flying low. In A2A a good pilot will have the SA and can either presume the threat being there or spot it visually. If he does not have the SA it probably wouldn't matter. It might come in handy every now and then but if somebody got close enough for IR shots then chances are even if you get a warning it won't save your ass from the radar guided follow up shots. I'm not sure how well these systems work against smokeless rocket motors but in a Gen 5 scenario they might be a bit more useful. Bottom line is you need to know your environment. If the first time you find out there's a bandit out there due to your RWR or MWS is blinking because he's shooting at you then you're probably dead.

Congrats SF!

New model of what? It only said FM update. I doubt APN has much relevance to a short range missile. Is it maybe the first missile to get the "new" FM which the other missiles will receive eventually too?

AIM-9M/L FM overhaul? I thought this was generally regarded as the most accurately modeled missile in game. What happened?

I think there are people who are willing to improve the sim for free and would gladly send in detailed 3d models for outdated things. There would have to be an intermediate person who would act as a barrier and only send the good stuff to ED to make a final call whether they take it in or not. It could be done also in a way that ED would pay them but this is obviously much more complicated.

RNE is generally considered with a given G turn and a given acceleration aftewards so depending on the numbers what we see may or may not be accurate. That said DLZ calculations have been off in every jet. I don't know if it's more broken or less in the 18 but in the other fighters you're pretty much reliant on your knowledge of how the missile is performs. But it might be down to the numbers mentioned above.

The changelog was sneaky and said AIM7 family. Which in that case also meant the 120s :)

G response seems much smoother, just like on the AMRAAM updated a few weeks ago. Once they implement target memory for the ARH head these missiles will become very deadly. When I was messing around with the AI after the APN update I was shocked how easy it is to notch them. Another thing I noticed with the slammers is that if you break / lose lock before MPRF the missile can oscillate quite a bit and waste some energy. Once it's MPRF it makes no difference. This can be pretty much only seen ingame though, ACMI barely shows it at all for some reason.

Winning the 1v1 is not reliable, surviving is. SA is much more of a factor in SARH duels compared to the usual ARH spamming because you're pretty much tunnelvision after committing to it. If both sides see each other it's very unlikely either one can pull something to disappear long enough that it matters, especially against a good opponent. The only exceptions are extremely well thought out notches and exceptional terrain masking. Generally you can deal with both of these but every now and then the guy does it so well you just need to ditch the fight. When these things happen you need to have an internal clock that tells you how much time you have to find him based on the situation and if you can't do it it's better to get out. In principle I found that against the average pilot, breaking up his typical engagement plan has severe effects on his fighting quality. Simply put if you do something out of the box often he will not know in time how to react. This can even mean very simple things like notching outside fighting range and returning later and you might find him pursuing other people with total disregard to you. Once you're committed to the duel you want to arrive with much more energy than the other guy, get a powerful shot ( doesn't imply you must shoot first, but generally you should ) then dump it to reduce closure. Typically this results in a diving snake maneuver to minimize closure - which might change with updated APN missile guidance, we'll see. If the other guy has the energy advantage you can either try to match him or pull the other extreme - play all the cards that trump his kill solution to you by flying low, notching, terrain masking etc. This is especially powerful against bandits flying above 30kft because you can sneak in under them from outside your fighting range and once you're within a certain range they are simply gimbal limited and are very unlikely to see you. Once the missiles are flying you need to assess the quality of launches from both sides. If you think your shots fare better then you should push for the kill and if the other way around then you either need to abort or do something to dumpster his missile. This is again where notching comes into play. The opponent might have a good shot in the air but if you remove it from the equation by ditching the guidance you level the field. The only problem here is that your missile will also be wasted, and now he has the angle advantage on you - so you have to be very clever on when and how you turn back. If you can notch well enough that he loses you completely you can usually recommit and gain a first shot advantage but if it is not the case then you will only get an equal fight at best. In same cases you can take sneaky IR shots and run, but this usually doesn't work against good pilots. What's also important is to be very smart with your missiles. In an Eagle you're carrying 4 Sparrows but you might absolutely need all of them to kill someone. Hell you might need a few of your 9s to make sure he's dead. Once you're in the fight there's no saving missiles, if you're close and you saw your shot fly dumb you need to followup immediately, if it's viable at all because in some cases this automatically means you either run or you're dead. Generally the closer you get the more intensive the spamming is because like other said these things are really not reliable. There are 2 other main factors that matter most (probably as much or more compared to your fighting skills) 1. wingmen: now this is a very obvious one. What I noticed flying on blueflag is that when I flew with another 104th the chances of survival were much more consistent. If you fly smart and have the right SA you're almost immortal solo aswell, but having a buddy will make it much easier to handle surprises. Which leads to the other point: 2. flight planning: with ARH you can just about do whatever the heck you want, fly into the middle of an opposing country, kill everyone alone and then fly home - all alone. With SARH you really cannot do this because you're always limited to fighting one guy at a time, all the way until he's really dead. So you need to fly in a way where you position your enemies that you can fight them effectively ( one at a time) and you have a clear escape window. Making use of your air defenses is also something you can do and it's very effective. Obviously this also all matters when you're using ARHs but not nearly as much.

Thanks. Are there any plans to "fix" it?

I also saw some videos and the camera seemed to shake quite a bit but like you said it's tough to tell how much that translates to the pilot. Currently ingame you're almost better off aiming without LCOS in snapshot scenarios. Can anyone comment from the test/dev perspective? GG or chizh maybe?

I did some testing in the weekend and it looks like it's a matter of guidance phase. What I saw is that if you dropped lock around 6-8 miles (assumed HPRF range) there was a violent oscillating behavior with very high and nonsensical Gs. Once it got within 6 miles it either stabilized to normal behavior or lost the target completely. Sometimes it picked it up later and repeated this behavior. On the other hand if you had TWS or STT support until within 6 miles (assumed MPRF range) this violent behavior did not occur and the missile guided smoothly all the way. The other thing I noticed is that it's VERY easy to notch the missile. You literally just have to fly through the notch for a fraction of the second (hot/cold turns are enough) and the missile will lose you, and even if it managed to reacquire this might be enough to cause a miss. But this is all missing features IIRC, currently I don't think the ARH heads have any memory or support in terminal phase from the launching platform. I tried STT or TWS all the way but it doesn't help against the notch. So far online I didn't feel much of a difference in range or reliability though and I didn't similarly examine the previous versions to have a meaningful conclusion.

How do the APN AIM120 versions compare to the old?

Can't wait for this.. it's crucial to building the right SA.

There was already a thread in some random section but it got lost in the past months.. I'm curious whether the amount of cockpit shakiness we have is realistic or not. To me it feels very overdone but I'm no expert. It's particularly annoying when fighting guns, it makes aiming far more difficult. Can anyone comment? I also don't recall having similar features in any other aircraft, although I don't fly them often. Is it a testbed for now?

Even if R-27R was a bit better, the MATRA is much closer to the performance of an ER than a R or AIM7. It accelerates better and has a much higher top speed. Whether this is realistic or not I don't know, but if you're trying to outduel a MATRA in a fair fight with 27R or AIM7 you're just getting yourself killed. What you can do instead is bait out his shots since he only has 2. Notching also works pretty well against the baguette radar.

Actually almost every squad in SATAL is using J-11s or Su-27s. Most of them not exclusively, but there are a lot of them. 77 having the same range as a 73 is an over exaggeration, while it has poor range it is quite deadly within 5 miles. 27R is just overall garbage especially when it has to turn. If someone thinks they can fight a fair fight 27R vs AIM7 obviously he will lose unless the Eagle driver is an idiot. If you have first shot at short ranges with 27R you can win but this needs to be setup right by notching or hiding. No doubt there's a lot of talent in the 51st but mostly it's down to dedication and knowledge. I see a lot of dedicated people flying all the time and I also see a lot of people who know quite a lot but can't fly enough. These 2 things rarely meet and what's even less common is these kind of people being in the same group. Sadly in my experience since Hornet release the general A2A quality has gone downhill outside tournament play.. If you're flying on 80s loadout servers you might want to load 73s instead. Those things are insane when fired near rear aspect. In any case I'm not seeing any facts how the 27R is not meeting realistic performance. Manufacturer max range shot supersonic at 40kft or higher does not translate into how it performs in DCS. Not that in similar scenario the missile can reach the marketing numbers. But every missile is broken so this is no surprise. The problematic part is that russian radar guided missiles seem to be more prone to stupid guidance issues (i.e. chaff resistance). If you want to have any hope of helping ED improve the missiles, provide them data instead of creating a thread every month that this or that missile sucks and it's unfair.

There are people flying regularly on the 104th server who kill Eagles,Hornets and whatever blue has with F-5s. All missiles are broken. Some more than others. But there is no bias. The only joke here is this thread. Looks like you don't even have any more arguments to add so instead you went for a weak attempt at offending me.