Cavemanhead

Hi Dragon, really enjoying your campaign so far. However, I've run into a snag on mission 7, related to the above posts. Banshee never joined formation with me despite keeping 250 for the majority of the flight to WP 2, only speeding up to reach it by the set time. After that, I checked the map to see where banshee was and discovered that they were flying a whole different set of WPs than us. Could you give it a look? I'll also try the mission again to see if they behave the same way. Thanks.

Thanks so much for taking time out to do this! I can appreciate the frustrations of a new system build. On "Common to all" you may want to add the 1080 TI OC; as I read your post it was the most important piece of data to me since one must have a very high end GPU to test a CPU lest you simply see a GPU bottleneck and not the real CPU performance... It sounds like you'll have a system that has a lot of future legs... Also, one thing people seem to forget that if there are other programs running in the background such as Voice Attack, TM, TIR, etc... that these can all be put on other cores so the multi-core superiority of the new Ryzen may not be fully understood for DCS.

TO FOLKS WANTING 4K BENCHMARKS... A good CPU test has "zero" video load so as to not ruin the benchmark. Testing at 4K will give you skewed performance numbers that are essentially meaningless in the context of CPU performance. Look for 1080P benchmarks of you want to understand the impacts of the CPUs...

Overall, the 3700X looks too be a sweet spot for performance gamers with a future proof upgrade path as the platform develops further. A +5% is almost statistically non-relevant and with bios optimizations, and core tools the Ryzen will most likely outperform the 9900k anyway. It will be interesting to see DCS comparisons... One thing that caught my eye is that the max high point fps may be as mush as 5% lower, the overall fps experience is smoother because the way the chip works making a more favorable "feeling" in games. Additionally, the capability to load up other programs that run along with DCS onto other cores will unload the main core CPU and further optimize the experience beyond a 9900k. Original link for info that follows: ----------------- Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) Meta Review: ~1540 Application Benchmarks & ~420 Gaming Benchmarks compiled Review Application Performance compiled from 18 launch reviews, ~1540 single benchmarks included "average" stand in all cases for the geometric mean average weighted in favor of these reviews with a higher number of benchmarks not included theoretical tests like Sandra & AIDA not included singlethread results (Cinebench ST, Geekbench ST) and singlethread benchmarks (SuperPI) not included PCMark overall results (bad scaling because of system & disk tests included) on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +34.6% faster than the Ryzen 7 1700X on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +21.8% faster than the Ryzen 7 2700X (on nearly the same clocks) on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +82.5% faster than the Core i7-7700K on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +30.5% faster than the Core i7-8700K on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +22.9% faster than the Core i7-9700K (and $45 cheaper) on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +2.2% faster than the Core i9-9900K (and $159 cheaper) some launch reviews see the Core i9-9900K slightly above the Ryzen 7 3700X, some below - so it's more like a draw on average the Ryzen 9 3900X is +27.2% faster than the Ryzen 7 3700X on average the Ryzen 9 3900X is +30.1% faster than the Core i9-9900K ApplicationsTests1800X2700X3700X3900X7700K8700K9700K9900KCPU Cores 8C/16T8C/16T8C/16T12C/24T4C/8T6C/12T8C/8T8C/16TClocks (GHz) 3.6/4.03.7/4.33.6/4.43.8/4.64.2/4.53.7/4.73.6/4.93.6/5.0TDP 95W105W65W105W95W95W95W95WAnandTech(19)73.2%81.1%100%117.4%58.0%77.9%85.9%96.2%ComputerBase(9)73.5%82.9%100%137.8%50.5%72.1%-100.0%Cowcotland(12)-77.9%100%126.9%--83.0%97.1%Golem(7)72.1%78.1%100%124.6%--80.5%87.9%Guru3D(13)-86.6%100%135.0%-73.3%79.9%99.5%Hardware.info(14)71.7%78.2%100%123.6%-79.3%87.6%94.2%Hardwareluxx(10)-79.9%100%140.2%51.3%74.0%76.1%101.1%Hot Hardware(8)-79.5%100%126.8%---103.6%Lab501(9)-79.4%100%138.1%-78.8%75.2%103.1%LanOC(13)-82.2%100%127.8%-75.7%-103.8%Le Comptoir(16)72.9%79.4%100%137.2%-69.6%68.5%85.2%Overclock3D(7)-80.1%100%130.0%--75.3%91.4%PCLab(18)-83.4%100%124.9%-76.5%81.6%94.0%SweClockers(8)73.7%84.8%100%129.5%49.6%71.0%72.7%91.9%TechPowerUp(29)78.1%85.9%100%119.7%-86.7%88.1%101.2%TechSpot(8)72.8%78.8%100%135.8%49.9%72.4%73.1%101.3%Tech Report(17)75.0%83.6%100%123.3%-78.4%-101.8%Tom's HW(25)76.3%85.1%100%122.6%--87.3%101.3%Perf. Avg. 74.3%82.1%100%127.2%~55%76.6%81.4%97.8%List Price (EOL) ($349)$329$329$499($339)($359)$374$488Gaming Performance compiled from 9 launch reviews, ~420 single benchmarks included "average" stand in all cases for the geometric mean only tests/results with 1% minimum framerates (usually on FullHD/1080p resolution) included average slightly weighted in favor of these reviews with a higher number of benchmarks not included any 3DMark & Unigine benchmarks results from Zen 2 & Coffee Lake CPUs all in the same results sphere, just a 7% difference between the lowest and the highest (average) result on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +28.5% faster than the Ryzen 7 1700X on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +15.9% faster than the Ryzen 7 2700X (on nearly the same clocks) on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is +9.4% faster than the Core i7-7700K on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is -1.1% slower than the Core i7-8700K on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is -5.9% slower than the Core i7-9700K (but $45 cheaper) on average the Ryzen 7 3700X is -6.9% slower than the Core i9-9900K (but $159 cheaper) on average the Ryzen 9 3900X is +1.8% faster than the Ryzen 7 3700X on average the Ryzen 9 3900X is -5.2% slower than the Core i9-9900K there is just a small difference between Core i7-9700K (8C/8T) and Core i9-9900K (8C/16T) of +1.0%, indicate that HyperThreading is not very useful (on gaming) for these CPUs with 8 cores and more Games (1%min)Tests1800X2700X3700X3900X7700K8700K9700K9900KCPU Cores 8C/16T8C/16T8C/16T12C/24T4C/8T6C/12T8C/8T8C/16TClocks (GHz) 3.6/4.03.7/4.33.6/4.43.8/4.64.2/4.53.7/4.73.6/4.93.6/5.0TDP 95W105W65W105W95W95W95W95WComputerBase(9)74%86%100%101%-97%-102%GameStar(6)86.6%92.3%100%102.7%100.3%102.8%108.6%110.4%Golem(8)72.5%83.6%100%104.7%--107.2%111.7%PCGH(6)-80.9%100%104.1%92.9%100.1%103.8%102.0%PCPer(4)89.6%92.5%100%96.1%-99.2%100.4%99.9%SweClockers(6)77.0%82.7%100%102.9%86.1%97.9%111.0%109.1%TechSpot(9)83.8%91.8%100%102.2%89.8%105.1%110.0%110.6%Tech Report(5)81.3%84.6%100%103.2%-106.6%-114.1%Tom's HW(10)74.0%83.9%100%99.5%--104.5%106.1%Perf. Avg. 77.8%86.3%100%101.8%~91%101.1%106.3%107.4%List Price

Great data and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to do this... Interesting to see was the performance difference in the maps that ED may find very useful. I missed the reason for the "switch" of 40+ FPS to double that multiple times by the 1080 Ti. What was holding it back?

Another interesting article on this HP unit: https://www.roadtovr.com/hp-copper-windows-vr-headset-exclusive/

Getting ready to build a new rig soon and want something very reliable and good for VR... Usually I've found that "latest" is not always best but maybe 1 or 2 behind the latest can work well... Any recommendations?

I'm getting ready to upgrade my machine with a 1080 Ti and add another SSD running Win 10. Will I be able to keep my Win 7 install of DCS intact and run another copy of DCS and all my planes on the Win 10 OS (on the same physical machine)? If so, how do I go about doing this?

Thanks so much for the replies! Ok here is some more info: Regarding clarification of the “perfect” gimbal from my POV: As I mentioned the Uber NXT was near perfect for me. IIR, it had basically zero resistance at the center, yet it could stay centered. As you deflected the stick, the resistance ramped up fairly linearly. At first I was a bit “meh” on this but within a week or 2 of flying I loved it as center movements were very precise and there was an automatic force-feedback type of element there that helped tweak muscle memory even more due to the resistance changes with position. As another general comments… I also looked at the VKB option and it looked “just as good” but the company doesn’t look as future proof and availability of the products may be even worse. Should I still be looking at that as an option or is VIRPIL probably the better option at this point? Yes, after researching I thought I’d missed the boat, but after additional researching the WarBRD seems beefier and more ingenious… The only drawback being it’s assumption of a no-extension stick… The perfect stick sounds like the WarBRD tweaked to accept an extension if desired… Roger that. 75mm extension is considered pretty small but I’m as worried about too large a stick throw as much as anything… But… Truthfully, I never wanted an extension in the first place in my cockpit setup – I only did that to further refine the “feel” of the stick to better smooth out the WH “feel” that much more… I like the stick to be angled (tilted) forward about 10 degrees and this alone (with the great weight of the TM grip make it a no-go so I may get the VPC grip too which I believe is taller anyway to save the weight and still be able to have the handle tilted forward about 10 degrees. Ergonomically, that just feels “correct” and most like a real cockpit. Additionally, I am right handed and prefer the Centerline of the stick to be about 15 degrees CCW when the stick is mounted on the chair between my legs which also gives a more ergonomic cockpit representation. What characteristics does the WarBRD with Cosmosim display? Ok, so I will need to use only VPC for the WarBRD, but I’ll be using TARGET for my WH Throttle, yes? Yes, I saw that on the VIRPIL site. Ready with the Credit Card… If I order the entire gimbal base and a grip it looks like ~$378 USD shipped. Yikes… I guess if I don’t like it someone else will if I need to sell it… Thanks much. As soon as I get a chance, I’ll read the BRD-N… You are the (almost) the person I was fishing for! I was hoping to get a direct comparison from the Uber NXT to the WarBRD. It sounds like it will have similar characteristics but be that much more rugged. Well, the macro-type use of my WH is very limited at best -- primarily just button assignments anyway so hopefully it will be fine… Does Virpil SW need to be loaded before the flight? So, it sounds like I’ll fire up VIRPIL SW before a flight to control the gimbal and TARGET before the flight to control the throttle? I’ll try the default first I think but will probably migrate to what you describe in the final sentence of the above part of your post. Thanks for the detailed explanation from your POV… IIR, the Mongoose grip is “taller” and sits a few cm higher that the WH grip so I’d assume it will feel very similar to what I have now in terms of “deflection feel” It’s been a few years with the extension, but I’m sure I can retrain my muscles to appreciate a “no extension” sort of feel that I flew with for many years… Not as good for helis though… Thanks for your comments which are helpful in this decision process.

My history: Long-time simmer of about 35 years (no joke)... Still in search of a better gimbal - best so far was a TM Cougar modded with the Uber NXT Currently have the TMWH stick (with 7.5 mm extension) and throttle - I love both but the WH gimbal is lacking even after a full refurb/regrease, etc... I'm thinking the Virpil WARBRD may be currently the best bang for the buck Questions: 1) What can I expect from the gimbal? Am I correct in assuming it will perform just like the Cougar NXT (no center bump) with smooth spring action that increases with distance from the center for some "force feedback" indication? 2) How on earth can I expect the Software to work? Am I correct to assume I will now need to run the TM software for the throttle and now the VIRPIL software just for the stick? If I use the TM WH handle does that change anything? Do I still use the VIRPIL Software for the stick or can I keep using TARGET?

Great Review here:

Just picking up tidbits here and there but it appears the CPU market will get very interesting soon. Newest Chips from AMD build on new architecture appear to be able to more than challenge Intel's latest... I really hope we again get into a CPU battle that ends up in annual generations that exceed the previous by 100%... Then graphene and quantum computing and... Is it even possible to imagine the kind of VR flying experience we'll have when the core technology is 10000 or 100000 times faster than what we have now? Crazy. CPU nerds out there: Please comment on how you guess the new AMD chips will perform...

Never had so much as a sniffle from DCS at any point in the last 3 years. 2.5.1 makes my system crash in NTTR and Normandy Maps. Looking to do a driver update per BigNewy's suggestion. Please report what you've found best in 2.5.1. Thanks.

I've got a GTX 970 and have never had an issue until the 2.5.1 update. Both NTTR and Normandy crash. Caucuses map is the only one that doesn't freeze and crash DCS. I despise updating drivers to fix a game but I'm willing to try. What driver is recommended, knowing that although newer may be better, the "newest" isn't always the best. Please weigh in. Thanks.

Yeah, great music paired with some great clips... Definitely not a novice movie - you're headed for GA fame...

Agreed. Very interesting...

Read the entire thread and I'm still not seeing a clear, definitive path to update 2.2OA to 2.5OB. I've never had 1.5.8. I Currently have 2.2 (that's it) and I want to go to 2.5. I don't care if it's a one way street. I tried the updater and it finds there's nothing to update. Now what?

Great post. Thanks so much for taking the time to document your findings. Appreciated!

I think the person posting the question is like me and looking for a quantitative answer of "x" GB more... I'm running out of disk space and trying to decide what to do once I go from 2.2 to 2.5.

Has there ever been a pre-purchase price bundle deal with a map and a plane? Would like to by SOH and F-18 at the same time, both discounted...

Are these sounds part of the latest update just released on Jan 5 2018?

So, still a bit foggy... It sounds like I simply install 2.5 on my Win 10 boot and use up an activation with my Win 10 boot, but I can leave the Win 7 Boot alone if I want to try out 2.5 using Win 7. How many activations do I get? It seems a bit odd to be using one up if I'm on the same PC and can't be using both dual boots at the same time. It would be great if the system were smart enough to allow me to uninstall on the Win 7 disk after confirming the Win 10 boot works ok - then crediting back my "activation" so I don't lose any. How do I know how many activations I have left for a given module?

So... What do I need to do? Uninstall on the one OS and reinstall on the other?

What if the new SSD has it's own OS via dual boot? I have DCS and all my modules on a Win 7 boot. I now have a dual boot to a new SSD that will be using Win 10 for DCS 2.5 Will this work? I don't care if I need to download all the files, but can I still have 2 versions installed on the same machine with 2 dual boot Operating Systems (Win 7 and Win 10)?