darkman222

Afaik both separate systems with even separate key binds

False alarm. He figured out. It was OBS recording software interfering with DCS

No, he had to leave the server. It was 4 F16s in total player controlled. The FPS were still fine until the end for everybody else. I will ask him if he still has the track.

How can we determine that the amount of energy bled in a turn is correct? And the amount of energy in a full pull back on the stick and not just only STR. Everybody is looking at the STR, this disussion should be over for so long now, and focussed on energy retention.

OXR Toolkit method unfortunately does not work for me. I tried it a lot yesterday. And I am sure now, it does not work for me. But we did a multiplayer flight with our squadron yesterday. And one of 4 people encountered a massive frame drop. like at 3fps. While nobody else did. He was suspecting the TGP, but were not sure as his winman used his TGP as well without degradation. 2 people in VR, 2 in 2D. Frame drop was for the guy in 2D.

Thanks @Flappiefor creating the thread. I have track replays but they are from an obsolete DCS versions now so they wont help anymore. Issue still persists. The easiest way to recreate it is (text copied from another thread I posted in): Author Posted April 27 (edited) My observations are: -CPU frame time will degrade after time. Might be related to something that killed aircraft leave on the server. Possibly craters, or other leftovers of what ever kind, that will add up in the CPU frame time. -Aircraft like the F18 or F14 that are CPU heavy will start suffering earlier than aircraft that are light on the CPU like the F16. But it will just take longer until the F16 will notice bad CPU frame times too. What I did in that video: On that specific server when I took the video there was not too many players online. So it took quite some time until the degradation started. 10 - 15 minutes maybe. When I went from guns area ( where the leftover of killed players is in a very dense area) to the BVR area (where the leftovers of killed players is less dense) the CPU frame time recovered. As soon as I went back to guns area frame time went back to the poor performance again. That means what ever causes the CPU frame time to degrade stays on the server the entire session. -when I reconnect to the same server, go to the area that had bad performance, there is no initial performance loss. It just starts to add up again over time. Here is a video illustrating what happens. Watch the CPU Frame time graph-

But why is it then that sometimes the AWACS can give a very precise picture and sometimes its just off, in best case or worst case just drifting around? The F16 at least has a MIDS knob than can be enabledthat

Because link16 contacts can be off for quite a lot of miles. Sometimes the real bandit is 1,5 nm in front of what data link shows. Imagine you'd be able to shoot at this bandit, but actually your Amraam is lagging 1,5 nm behind and killing the friendly who is chasing him.

As @sinnsays. We even have 4 discussions here. 1. Gameplay. Over-G-ing with paddle or in the case of the F14 and F15 by anlogue control input. Disabling the paddle is a too easy thinking, because you just cant disable over-G-ing in traditional aircraft. 2. How realistic is the flight performance while over-G-ing or paddle pulled. There are no EM charts for an F15 at 12 G. So this has to be extrapolated from existing data. 3. F16 performance. That is what the thread title says. Over-G-ing of other aircraft should not be in this discussion. The turn rate of the F16 has been claimed to be correct for quite a while now. Lets assume this. What remains open is energy bleed while turning. People are still suspicious about it because it has been adjusted, and that was not just a little difference in the FM but quite a lot. So its hard for people to believe in that everything is correct now if it was not in the first release versions of the F16. 4. F16 pilot G tolerance, which has not something to do with the F16 flight performance in the first place. But in the second place because the pilots G tolerance does limit what you can get from the DCS F16s flight models performance. The big question is, will it ever be possible to deal with that different topics separately, or will people be mixing them up again and again because all of the 4 topics affect the over all impression you'll get from the DCS F16.

@wilbur81And now ask yourself where each fighter turns the best, at which G loads. While the DCS F18 pilot is chilling at 7.5G (without paddle) the DCS F16 pilot rates around with 8G at the edge of conciousness not being able for the final 9G pull, because he will pass out. Even if both jets are more or less equal in turn rate performance, in an ideal world and in DCS, because lets assume F18 and F16 are correct as is in their performance, why would the outcome be different, if there was not something limiting the F16s performance here? Letting go of the G also involves reducing the thrust for not speeding over the rate speed etc. and throttling up again. It is a lot of complex things involved here.

Its not about realism with the G LOC modelling its just about that the DCS F16 pilot is not qualified to fly that jet. Of course it is almost impossible to agree on whats realistic or what a virtual pilot should be capable of. But if he does not meet the requirements, we can all agree on that this is unrealistic. Its 15 seconds and there is a document out about it. I wont post it because ED forum rules. But even though, 15 seconds requirement is absolutely plausible. If you build a race car capable of running 300 km/h but put tires on that explode at 250 km/h, so you have to go slower than 300 km/h, would that mean the car underperforms? THIS!

It was good in MT one update ago. And the bug was already there before MT was introduced.

I also posted in that mentioned thread some time ago. because I am annoyed by the paddle pulling F18s too. But unfortunately the paddle is a minor issue here. Its the F15, F14 over-G-ing too. You simply dont have a cheat mode in the F16. And if it there were a limiter override or whatever F16 dudes would do the same as the F18. There was a folds of honor tournament, where realistic G limits were enforced. And guess what, no 15G F14 in the higher ranks any more. But incredibly hard to enforce those G limits, even in a tournament environment. The only realistic option to consider for the F16 is re-evaluating if the energy bleed rate is correct, and no I dont mean the turn rate. And to make the DCS F16 pilot qualified to fly the F16. The rest is what I would call realistic flying, which nobody will do on a dogfight server.

Cant speak for whom he was referring to, but maybe you should have done it with two F16 pilots, who fly an energy fighter, instead of F18 pilots, who fly a radius fighter. I hope that at least these two guys know the difference. Didnt you wanna go to work btw?

Everybody does. Which is a good thing, because it creates discussions and shows ED where the interest of their customers is attracted to.

Of course I have an F16 badge here, thats why I am arguing in the F16 forum and not in the F18 subforum. lol. Have a nice day at work.

I talk coming from a sustained turn rate fight for nose position. Not coming from horizontal flight. I have a nice in game video collection showing that you cant rate and then pull the bandit in the HUD without seriously being limited by fighting g loc. But I will create a separate thread about just that topic. I was about to post it here but: Okay, sorry no offence, but I dont know how often you fight in the F16 compared to the F18, but I feel that arguing with someone who has an F18 badge here is slightly biased and I still have the feeling you dont understand where my argument is going. I know both the F16 and F18 world and I know what you have in mind, but that does not apply for the F16. So good luck, thats all from me. Over and out.

One more time: You rate around the circle. 7,5 G maybe. Then you realize you can pull the bandit in the HUD for the kill. But you cant pull the bandit in the HUD because if you pull even 8,2 whatever for 2 seconds, the F16 pilot falls asleep. I dont want to insult someone, I was just trying to save your and my time here.

This proves you dont get the basics of how an energy fight works Mr. F18. He does NOT say hold that 9G sustained turn, he said hold that lag pursuit course and spend your energy when you can score a kill. You have a basic misunderstanding about this concept, sorry my friend.

What do you think means when he says 1) "hold that lag pursuit course" and 2) "thats when you want to pull the nose on the target" Translation: 1) sustaining and rating around 2) pull him in the HUD with max G... But oh no, I blacked out. I did not hear him say that. If you want a test, see there is another F16 sim out there. Which does g modelling very well. You know what? The stuff Pete is talking about actually works, if the pilot is F16 qualified.

Yeah sure. Engineers at General Dynamics: Lets build a 9G fighter, but no one will be able to use it in dogfight. I talk about rating around a bandit is useless if you cant pull him in your HUD for a kill.

The DCS F16 pilot is not qualified to fly the jet. Threrefore some of F16 DGFT tactics dont work. Because the pilot cant rate and then pull the bandit in the HUD because he is already too exhausted from 7,5 to 8 G. Does not matter if we have data how pilots fight in the F16. The DCS pilot cant stand 15 sec of 9 G which disqualfies him. And the DCS F16 is a 9G fighter with a pilot not capable of 9G not even 8G in some circumstances. This is another addditional limiting factor for the DCS F16. If someone does an owl neck jink desync whatever, you can be the best gunner in the DCS F16 world, your chances are very low to kill him. Try to understand my post correctly. This is what my post was all about. Not about compensating it with how the airframe is actually simulated.

To sum it up: F18 is flown with paddle = Advantage F16 suffers from unrealistic G modeling of pilot, cant be flown long enough in regime where it performs best = Disadvantage F16 is made to kill under high G load. In reality you dont have an owl neck while pulling 9 G with the paddle and can jink like crazy. But in DCS you can do, especially F18 and Mirage dudes do it = Disadvantage F16 F18 can jink under heavy G load, while not losing sight of f16, which will make the F16 slow, eventually overshoot = Advantage F18 What happens is all that stuff adds up to what we have now and is only relevant in DCS not in the real world. If you have enough with that discussion, head over to a radar discussion. Same can be observed there too. Unfortunately the sim acts against rate fighters and favors radius fighters. Its the way it is and its just a sim, people will use exploits, which is real life.

Not knowing what youre referring to. I did a bombing run (in Caucasus) just now using A-G SMS TGP HAD WPN pages. Every page worked fine and as usual. Maybe a video or track can help. How do you switch pages? I dont think the map youre flying on matters. Still works fine with HOTAS here.

If it does not give you turn rate advantage it gives you the advantage that you dont need to throttle down or use the airbrakes. So your engine stays on, you dont lose thrust while spooling down and up again. And it gives you the advantage to stay on speed and not widening your turn circle. Also it gives the advantage of having a better nose authority for snapshots, before the the g limiter kicks in. You can fix a lot of minor BFM errors with the cost of nothing.